When does 'music' ...............become noise?

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 27 Sep 2012 7:53 am

Is there a clear definition of what is 'music'?

When does one players' creative efforts 'outside the box' become a listners' headache, nightmare or noisey assualt on ones' senses?

How does a player recognize his/her level of playing?

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 27 Sep 2012 7:57 am

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
So is ugly.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Sep 2012 8:00 am

I think it was John Cage who said that music was organized sound. I like that definition. As a resident of New York City, I have access to the best music in the world. I've been at concerts at The Stone where harmony and melody were missing completely and still enjoyed the sounds washing over me.

As far as "level of playing", a musician in my opinion should judge that by how much they have created their own voice. At the beginning you imitate, later hopefully you innovate. But creating a music that is unique to your voice is the the ultimate goal for me.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 27 Sep 2012 8:11 am

When you can hear it coming from down the block out of the open windows of a lowered Toyota Corolla driven by a guy who can barely see over the steering wheel?

Just a guess . . .

Chris

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 27 Sep 2012 9:02 am

I can't begin to describe to you what it is about music that moves me. There is so much music that I've listened to that I don't understand, yet I have a real hunger for it.

I'm am really attracted to music that many would consider to be noise. I love atonal and free improvisational music. But I also love beautiful tonal music.

My own goal as a musician is to continue to grow into music and try to get to a place where I am able to play freely without any limitations, melodically, harmonically, rhythmically and otherwise. I have the rest of my life to work towards this goal, and I frankly don't care if others consider it noise. I play for myself first.

Rich Gardner · Post by **Rich Gardner** » 27 Sep 2012 9:39 am

When I was 18 or so and Jimi Hendrix was THE guitar player of all guitar players, I thought he was the greatest. Today his music is just noise to me. I guess nothing lasts forever. Today I like tunes by Jerry Byrd, Buddy Emmons, Les Paul and Lou Pallo. What can I say?

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 27 Sep 2012 10:05 am

To me there is more than one componant to the question. In my humble opinion, if the tonal sound(s) produced by the musician(s) are the sounds they intended to produce, and are able to be duplicated reliably by them I'll give the musicians the benefit of the doubt regardless whether it compliments my taste, like it or not. If a musical piece is performed poorly, or incorrectly is it still music?

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 27 Sep 2012 10:07 am

"When does 'music' ...............become noise?"

When you strongly dislike it.

This only applies to you, of course. One man's meat is another man's poison, and vice versa.

**"You" is the editorial "you."**

"How does a player recognize his/her level of playing?"

This has a couple of angles to it. Each individual weights the different angles for him-/her- self.

1) To what degree are you able to express what you want to?

2) How much positive reaction do you get from other people?
-a) How strong a positive reaction?
-b) How many people?
-c) What kind of people?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Sep 2012 11:24 am

Music becomes noise when your mind is simply not able to grasp what is being done and you decide to fight it. This is different than deciding what is "good music" vs. "bad music", which is strictly subjective.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Sep 2012 12:51 pm

When I play it?

Rick Schacter · Post by **Rick Schacter** » 27 Sep 2012 1:02 pm

Well, this can't be about the attachment that I just sent you...'cause you posted this before I figured out how to send it (whew!).

I guess I'm safe for now.

Rick

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 27 Sep 2012 1:38 pm

I can't quote him directly, but Lloyd Green said in an interview something like "When it gets to be more rhythm and less music, the music loses its identity". True words to my way of thinking.

Ross Whitaker · Post by **Ross Whitaker** » 27 Sep 2012 2:00 pm

Frank Zappa had some good stuff to say about this in his autobiography. Basically, he said it was organization. The example he gave, I recall, was John Cage taping a contact mic to his throat and gargling carrot juice. If Cage calls that his composition, then that's what it is. That doesn't mean anyone has to like it.
I've played some pretty harsh atonal music for some of my guitar students, and some of them react pretty violently, saying, "That's not music!" I tell them what I wrote in the paragraph above, more or less, because I think declaring someone else's music as not-music is a dangerous and slippery slope.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Sep 2012 2:02 pm

"Today his music is just noise to me. "

I still love his music and am more amazed by it now than when it came out. One of our great (and last, IMHO) innovators.

Bobby Hearn · Post by **Bobby Hearn** » 27 Sep 2012 2:20 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:Music becomes noise when your mind is simply not able to grasp what is being done and you decide to fight it.

I was really fighting some Toby Keith today!

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 27 Sep 2012 2:36 pm

Music becomes noise when I play steel guitar.

Alan Tanner · Post by **Alan Tanner** » 27 Sep 2012 3:47 pm

Many times during the early tryouts of American Idol, X-Factor, and like shows, it becomes beyond noise. While it is comical and pitiful to see some of these folks, it can also be unbelievably painful.

William Lake · Post by **William Lake** » 27 Sep 2012 4:22 pm

Anything that comes over the phone while you're on hold.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 27 Sep 2012 6:26 pm

I believe music became noise about 1963.

I have to say that I like a catchy tune, and much of today's music has no catchy tunes to hum to oneself.

I also think that music should be capable of being written out on paper, without being all on one note. Rap, to me, has no melody, and consists of extraordinarily-bad prose with abusive language which violates many human rights and fosters racial tension.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 27 Sep 2012 6:54 pm

One of the definitions of noise, white noise, is all frequencies at random. We, myself included, who grew up in a Western culture tend to be rooted in music based on 12-tone scales and 8-tone harmonies and, in particular, music based on melody and harmony, which is also vertical structure.

I think Cage considered any sounds to qualify as music, the piece 4'33" would be an example of that. I think the quote that "music composition is organized sound" came from Edgar Varese, who also wrote the first percussion piece, Ionisation, back in the 20's which would have qualified as noise from a tonal point of view.

So when is noise interesting, beautiful and/or soothing? Listening to the waves or the wind in the pines and trees, or a thunderstorm.

I play in a couple of different "noise" ensembles that include variations of wind and guitar players including "prepared guitar". The idea is to fill the air with sound that's "moving and alive" which means I have to really listen to what is happening and play into it. In that regard, what I think we are making is complicated sound, where traditional harmony and theory have lost their meaning.

On the other end of the spectrum, one time I played with a death-metal free improve noise ensemble that had 3 guitars, 2 basses, 2 drummers and a sax player with a pedal board who could put out a wall of noise by himself. I can't believe the full house audience sat through that one, but they did.

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 27 Sep 2012 7:27 pm

Music can't become noise, but, by use of organization, noise can be music. The rest is personal taste

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 27 Sep 2012 8:26 pm

Without a doubt when you hear it called rap or hiphop.When a 150 dollar auto with a 5000.00 sound system with about 4 or 6 18 inch bass speakers drives down your street at three am,and rattles the windows in your house,DAMN IT THATS NOISE.If you try to defend that,I'm sorry for you.You need to get a job on MSNBC,YOU WILL FIT RIGHT IN. YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 27 Sep 2012 9:29 pm

When does 'music' ...............become noise?

As soon as I start to push down on the volume pedal.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 27 Sep 2012 10:36 pm

When it is discussed on the steel guitar forum.

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 28 Sep 2012 3:05 am

Music usually becomes noise somewhere after a band has consumed the fourth round of drinks bought for them by a well-meaning club patron.

If you want to recognize your level of musical accomplishment....listen to any recording/performance by your favorite musician, then listen to your own efforts on the same tune.....should give you a pretty clear idea of where you are on the pecking order....the same is also good for ego reduction.