Emmons Push-Pull Millennium

autry andress · Post by **autry andress** » 10 Oct 2002 3:30 pm

I was wondering what a Emmons Push-pull,
Easy to play, Stay in Tune,Carbon Fiber cabinet would sound like?
There certainly seem to be a big demand on the push pull guitar here lately.
Do you think The Emmons company may be looking in the future any time soon with a high tec Push-pull Millennium ???
What do you think??

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Oct 2002 3:51 pm

I seriously doubt it.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 10 Oct 2002 10:48 pm

I doubt it even more seriously than Donny does.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 10 October 2002 at 11:49 PM.]

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 11 Oct 2002 7:35 am

One would think that with the popularity of these guitars, that Emmons would make a reissue. I bet it will happen in a couple of years.

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 11 Oct 2002 7:37 am

I doubt it even more seriously than Herb!

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 11 Oct 2002 8:48 am

It's hard to beat perfection.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 11 Oct 2002 11:45 am

Wouldn't be the same, unless it had a Bill Hankey "Lucky 24"(pat. pend.)fretboard.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 11 Oct 2002 1:14 pm

I doubt it; but I'm not serious.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 13 Oct 2002 4:00 pm

A plastic Emmons? Yes, right after Steinway makes a plastic piano,

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 13 Oct 2002 6:50 pm

I second what Frank says. NR

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Oct 2002 4:34 pm

One such project is a working Steinway grand piano, crafted from translucent plexiglass and installed in the lobby of Abravanel Hall.

I pulled this off the web because I remember seeing this piano...it's a beaut! If memory serves me correctly, Liberace also had a plexiglass Steinway.

Richard Plummer · Post by **Richard Plummer** » 15 Oct 2002 5:39 am

Yes but Emmons guitars are known for the excellent resonance and bell tone.I listened to Frank Parrishes legrande 11 and it seemed like the sound envelloped the cabinet.I doubt Ron would nor would I want him to change the cabinet materials or construction.The only thing I would change if I could suggest to him would be the way the pedal rods are attached to the pedal board.It would be nice to have some quick change snap connectors like the Zumsteel,but I know Ron is concerned with any change in design might change the tone.Dont know about that it would be nice though.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 15 Oct 2002 10:23 am

Warning!! This will probably be a long post and it will also probably bring the flame throwers out. If you're not interested, just pass over it. Blow torches accepted, I have an asbestos lined, cast iron posterior.

The terms 'standard' and 'perfection' are probably the two most subjective and immeasurable nouns you'll find in the language of the steel guitar world.

Sho-Bud and Emmons, the standard to which all steels are compared?

The worst 3 hours and 15 minutes I ever endured on a bandstand was behind my P-P Emmons----now the reason; someone 'permanently borrowed' my Fender Twin that had my Goodrich pedal in the back of it, and I had to use a substitute amp and pedal.

Now if that is the standard you're talking about, a 2 X 6 strung with baling wire would probably be a better one. By the way it being the worst night I ever had was confirmed by the other 4 members of the band and most of the audience.

Do all ShoBuds and Emmons sound that way? Of course not. What does this say to me? Merely that I personally believe the sound of the music is dependent on every component in the tonal signal path.

(Like Donny Hinson once said, "Man, you gotta' twist them knobs!)

Worst automobile I ever owned, bought new off the show room floor, was a Cadillac--another standard. Proof? All one had to do was look at the repair bills and you would know why it was labelled as the "garage queen."

Peers to me as if the Steel Guitar industry is following in the footsteps of many other industries and products in this country. First it's made of wood, then metal, then some 'plastic' or composite material. For example; take aircraft, automobiles, canoes/boats, tennis racquets, etc.

Perhaps MSA IS on the cutting edge. Do you think the other steel makers are not cognizant of this 'revolutionary move' to a lighter, stronger material? If you believe they're not, you just may be a tad behind, and perhaps if the steel makers are not aware, maybe they're further behind than you are.

Composite material construction ain't cheap. The tooling is quite expensive and one can call it 'plastic', carbon fiber, or whatever, the fact is this type construction is lighter, stronger, and less subject to time fatigue than any other material that is being used today in the steel guitar world. Using titanium for the metal parts just makes for a lighter stronger unit.

The use of Vinyl-ester type resins during some carbon fiber construction can certainly lead to the connotation that it is 'plastic', but the word 'plastic' for some unknown reason seems to imply cheapness. Not so friends. Two years ago we completed construction of a 'plastic' airplane called a Lancair. It wasn't cheap and it will outperform nearly every 4 place aircraft manufactured today.

One of the business people on this Forum that I respect most, is one of my favorite players, technicians and from what I understand a fellow pilot and that is Bobbe Seymour. I think he is one of the most knowledgeable innovative techs/players who post here.

He sometimes, as he says gets to 'leg humpin' but that's ok with me. His expertise relative to the instrument is probably unsurpassed, but IMHO I just believe he may be mistaken about this new instrument, along with a lot of other folks who may also be wrong. Only time will tell.

I also believe Bobbe would rather take his family on a cross country trip in our Lancair (99% composite construction) rather than in a 1929 Jenny which is wood and fabric.

You have to ask yourself honestly before you really bad mouth the MSA Millennium,

Have I ever heard one in real life? Have I ever lifted one? And more importantly, have I ever played one?

If the answer to those questions is no, then you may be out of school, which, by the way, is certainly your right and I respect that.

To those folks who had the (Texas Term) "cojones" to put their money where there mouth is, speaking of the Andersons, Bennetts and Micro Space, thanks for the step.

The best car I ever owned was a stupid looking Edsel and they went out of business because no one bought them, but after touring the MSA factory, seeing the numbers of steel guitar blanks with peoples' names already on them----some of who are on this thread---I personally don't believe MSA is gonna' have that problem.

Now hurry up and get mine out here.

------------------
The spirit be with you!!

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 15 Oct 2002 10:58 am

....after reading my post again, I couldn't understand it....but it didn't say what I was trying to say...so I deleted it!

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 16 October 2002 at 03:37 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 15 Oct 2002 1:48 pm

I've never heard an MSA Millenium, so I express no opinion on that.
The respected Mr. Seymour has stated in other threads an opinion I tend to agree with. Paraphrased, he said he thought it was funny that people talked about what colour a steel was, how easy the pedals pushed, etc, and tended to be less discriminating about the bottom line: Tone.
So now I have a conundrum on my hands. If I agree with that, (and I do) why would I care if the MSA was made of beer cans, as long as it sounded good ?
More on the topic - If you want a push pull Emmons, you just go buy one. They're all over the place.
-John
And, yes, I play one.

[This message was edited by John Steele on 15 October 2002 at 03:02 PM.]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 16 Oct 2002 8:26 am

There's no question that carbon composite materials have an important place in many industrial applications. And if people want to buy a steel guitar made of from that material, it's their money, not mine.

But I am unconvinced that there is a good reason why a steel guitar made of composite should cost 50% to 100% more than a steel guitar made of traditional materials.

While carbon composite does not reduce costs in ALL applications, it does reduce costs in MANY applications, which is why tennis rackets and many other consumer products made from this material are cheaper than alternatives. This cost savings is particularly common where the composite is formed in a mould, eliminating the costs of manufacturing and assembling the item from parts.

Of course, price is not the only factor one considers when buying a steel guitar. Other factors include how long the company has been in business, the company's track record for supporting customers, and the confidence you have that you will be treated fairly.

We are truly fortunate to live in a time when there are many reputable companies out there making fine steel guitars at reasonable prices, run by people who have demonstrated over time their commitment to those who buy their product.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 16 Oct 2002 9:19 am

Stephen, I couldn't agree with you more, and I especially like it when you say, "And if people want to buy a steel guitar made of from that material, it's their money, not mine." I think it's just great when people feel that way.

That gives the purchaser the leeway and courtesy one would want when spending that much money.

I'm not sure about the cost of the item being 100% more than others on the market because the cost wasn't really a factor when I bought the new MSA.

Knowing the people involved as well as I do certainly alleviated my fears as to their credibility. Perhaps I've been privy to more of the 'whole story' than most, but who knows. I'm perfectly satisfied with my new toy and really that's all that counts with me.

------------------
The spirit be with you!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 16 Oct 2002 9:27 am

Exactly, Fred. We live in a country of choices, that's the beauty of America. I wish you happiness with your choice.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 16 Oct 2002 11:25 am

Stephen O....I'm sure we will agree, material cost and quantity purchase are directly related in manufacturing, and ultimately impacts marketing and pricing of a product.

Comparing the cost of thousands upon thousands of composite golf clubs and tennis rackets with hundreds of steel guitar bodies, is not a valid comparison.

As an example, MSA now pays more for a 4 1/2 pound composite body, than we first priced an MSA double neck.

From a business standpoint, MSA must also amortize the cost of the mold for a composite body. In the instance of the mold for the Millennium, both single and double neck, each one cost more than twice what I paid for my first home.

Your statement about "reasonably priced steel guitars" is subjective as I'm sure you know, yet ultimately determined by the purchaser.

An inexpensive watch will keep time, but there are a lot of Rolex watches being worn. A black and white TV will provide the same picture, yet most have a color set. An older used car will get you where you want to go, but we all see new luxury cars everywhere.

I believe everyone in this great country deserves to have the very best they can afford, whatever that price may be. However, as we all know, exceptional quality and low price do not equate.

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 16 Oct 2002 11:45 am

... not to mention, you ALWAYS pay more for 'new cutting edge technology' -- case in point-- remember when the first VCR's came about? They were in the $1000+ range (same as CD players, DVD players etc), NOW you can get any of these for what $65 each now?
... Interesting thing with the analogy of the DVD and CD players etc. I remember when they first started getting popular, a lot of traditionalists (and some still do) would swear up and down that 'this new technology is a fad' and that 'it will never catch on' etc..
... Personally, I APPLAUD MSA for taking this giant leap of faith with the new technology. I recently purchased a used MSA Classic for my 'first steel'. I've been playing this guitar now for 2 weeks at an average of 6 hours/day. No tuning problems-- I CAN'T knock this thing out of tune!. The fact that this instrument that is possibly/probably 20 years old still is this mechanically sound is a testament to MSA's commitment to quality. I do know that when I find myself being an 'adequate' psg player, I hoep to purchase a Millennium. Not that I find any faults with the classic, but I always try to set goals for myself

I firmly believe that MSA once agian will be setting a standard of mechanical superiority with the Millennium. My hat is off to Reece and those involved with MSA, and I wish ya'll the best of luck with this!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 16 Oct 2002 12:35 pm

Maurice, good points. As an un-indited co-conspirator, I appreciate your direct response.

Naturally, starting up any enterprise requires an capital investment and I'm not surprised that creating the molds were expensive (even though I have no idea what you paid for your first house).

I do, however, find your comments about the rolex and color tv and luxury cars interesting. I guess what your trying to say is that your new MSA deserves a 150% to 200% price premium because it is higher quality.

True, there are many people in this world who wear expensive watches, buy expensive home theaters, drive Mercedes and Lexuses (Lexii?), yachts, french wine, back massagers from Sharper Image, etc. Perhaps that is your target market. And I agree that these people should be able to spend their money any way they want.

But implying that other steel guitars represent a compromise of standards, a lowering of expectations, a sign of settling for less is a disservice to the many builders who have earned a reputation for fine instruments and customer support.

By the way, will the price of the MSA decrease once the molds are fully amortized?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 16 Oct 2002 1:01 pm

This topic is getting way off the original subject of Emmons building a new push-pull guitar but I'll toss a couple things into the mix before b0b closes it.

Every company has startup costs. If they don't properly calculate amortization as part of the selling price of their product, they will either price themselves out of the market or never show a profit. Dekley was still paying for molds and tooling when they went out of business and they sold a slew of guitars at very competitive prices to the rest of the guitars on the market.

I paid more for a pack of cigarettes today than I paid for a whole carton in the 60's.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 16 Oct 2002 1:20 pm

Stephen O....Nothing stated in my post would or should form a combative or negative conclusion, nor should anything I said be construed as being condescending to anyone.

However, if someone were so inclined as to try to conjure something distasteful and beneath the dignity of most on this forum, that is their business and they can take responsibility for their actions.

Most all steel guitar builders are friends of many years and know I would never imply anything such as you suggest, and neither would they. Possibly this will explain why none have made a statement within this thread.

And...of course the price of the MSA can come down as quantities go up, provided material costs stay the same.

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 16 Oct 2002 1:26 pm

What I read out of Reece's statement is, the materials being used and tooling required make the cost higher to produce a guitar with all the new features inherent in the
Millennium. I also believe that some steel players will drive Chevys', eat at McDonalds
but will play a Millennium.
Prices always go up, look at all Steel guitar mfg, have they lowered their prices?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 16 Oct 2002 2:04 pm

You're right, Maurice. I guess it's a good thing then that I didn't say anything that could possibly be construed as combative or negative. I, too, share your distaste for those who abuse the forum. We agree on a lot things.

My feeling is quite positive. People should buy what they want. I don't wear a rolex, I bought my watch at Walmart. I drive a 1993 Ford Taurus, my wife drives a 1990 Honda Accord, we watch a TV I bought used from a friend. Well, I guess quality is as quality does.