Set up question on Vintage MSA D12

Brett Houston · Post by **Brett Houston** » 23 Sep 2012 2:04 pm

Hey Ya'll, I'm restoring a Vintage pre-1974 MSA D12 and had a question about standard pedal and lever configuration.

When I got it, she was mess, nothing worked right and I was unsure as to many of the pedal/lever changes. It's an awesomely well built machine though, very impressed with their quality. And the tone is unbelievable.

Anyway, I was wondering if there was a standard change guide that I could follow as far as setting up pedal and knee levers. Any links or advice would be appreciated

I'm new to steel so, my vocabulary may be off as well, hopefully ya'll can understand me. All my experience so far has been on a ShoBud S10 with 3 pedals. This one has 10.

My main question is the d pedal (4th from left) now raises the E strings on the 4th and 8th string to F on the E9 neck. Is this correct? I can't seem to make that sound good in any combination, how would that normally be used?

What would the e pedal typically change? I now have it lowering the 1st and 6th string G# to F#.

Big thanks for any advice.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 23 Sep 2012 2:41 pm

Brett - Here is a link to a PDF file of the MSA manual.

You can see the various tunings that MSA used.

There is other helpful information, as well.

Hope this helps!

Click Here

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 Sep 2012 3:28 pm

Wow. E-F (technically E#) is best done on a knee (I use LKL).
I drop 6 to F# with RKL, along with raising 1 to G.
How many knees does your guitar have?
Since most of us have copedents that represent a compromise, it'd help to know what you have and what you want to accomplish.
Then you can sit back and watch everyone make their case for what setup THEY'D run on YOUR guitar: you choose either the best stated case, or the setup of the cat whose thinking best resembles yours.

Brett Houston · Post by **Brett Houston** » 23 Sep 2012 3:49 pm

Lee,

Thanks for the manual! Much appreciated.

Lane,

Thanks for the input.

There are 4 knee levers and the LKL does the exact same thing as the 4 pedal. The RKL does the same as the 5 pedal. Which follows follows the changes you listed.

Since these pedals mirror the knee levers I wonder if I could have them do something else?

It always made sense to me to have something drop the G# to G so I can easily get a minor chord. Am I the only one?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 23 Sep 2012 4:54 pm

E-F (technically E#)

Only true in the context of using it with the A pedal to make a C# chord (E# is indeed the 3rd scale tone in a C# scale).

Back when you first started posting that you think it should be an E# instead of F, I had my brother ask his music professor about it. As the open tuning is expressed as a form of an E chord (E9) and not a form of a C# chord, the correct notation in the tuning would be an F note, not an E#. In music speak, you don't say a sharped 1 or 12, it is a flat 9, which is more common terminology.

While it is your prerogative to call it anything you want, I think we should be careful of spreading things that are technically not accurate on here.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 23 Sep 2012 5:20 pm

If it has 10 floor pedals, I would guess that it is a 6th tuning rather than an E9th.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 Sep 2012 5:24 pm

With only 4 knees, (and I assume a vertical would be a pain), and assuming you want the modern Tommy White and Paul Franklin sounds, I'd have P4 drop 5,6 and 10 a whole tone ( also called the Franklin drop or the Franklin pedal), and add a pull to the RKL, so that it raises 1 to G# and 2 to E, also dropping 6 to F#.
I would think about dropping the Bs to A# with your last pedal closest to the volume pedal, double-footing to hit it.
if those square bar guitars are all-pull guitar, dropping to F# makes a G with the B pedal

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 23 Sep 2012 7:16 pm

Glad to see this topic as I'm doing the exact same thing. Just about finished with this Classic D12. Just ready to reinstall and wire everything and start rodding it up.

I had planned on using the MSA copedant per the above manual and adding P0 for the Franklin change.

Got everything repolished, blasted, and cleaned.
Refelted the bottom, new legs, new pedal bar, new rods (Both pedal and pull), all new nuts, and 24 new Grovers on the heads. Oh, and gonna put one 'o them vertical levers on it too.

Can't wait to get it strung and see how it sounds.

It'll be for sale soon. Tidewood Mica. I'm trying to finance a new CNC mill.

Brett, if you have any questions, give me a hollar.
And I might be able to scrounge up a few extra parts if ya need them.....right Lane?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 Sep 2012 7:50 pm

He said pre-74. Do you make those ZB-style parts, Michael?
Brett, if you have round cross shafts, Michael is your man.
I don't know when they went from bars to shafts.

Okay, Richard. I still think of that lever as primarily making a 3 to C#

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 24 Sep 2012 4:42 am

You say you're new to the steel. I suggest that you take the guitar to a qualified steel technician and have him re-build it for you. That way it will be done right, and you won't have any problems with it down the line.

If you're in Central or Northern California, you can take it to Tom Bradshaw. If you're in the southern part of the state, take it to Jim Palenscar. When you get the guitar back, it will be properly set up and adjusted, and ready to play.

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 24 Sep 2012 6:53 am

The pre-'74 didn't register but I thought that round shaft generation began in '72. I could be wrong but I have a '74 with round shafts.

Yes, I make the ZB Adjuster Rods.

What is the current logic behind the Frankin at P4 instead of P0? I'll be setting this up as Extended E9 and Extended C6 per the MSA Copedant.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 Sep 2012 6:58 am

Okay, Richard. I still think of that lever as primarily making a 3 to C#

And, in that context, you are 100% correct.

Brett Houston · Post by **Brett Houston** » 26 Sep 2012 10:13 am

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the input. Ya'll rock!

Mike P, good suggestions. Jim Palenscar has been very kind and helpful in advising me via phone and email. However he's several hours drive from me, or in that traffic that could be days... I'd be nice to just have someone take care of it, but then again I like being able to do things myself so when it breaks during a gig I can handle it. It's going quite well so far, this thing sounds and plays great. I just need to decide which direction to take the C6 neck as far as tuning and pedal/lever changes.

Lane, according to Reece this unit was made before they merged with Micro. I'll try and post a photo to help identify the parts. The only part I need is the cross bar for pedal 5. Someone cut it so the pedal won't engage anymore. The RKL handles the same thing as p5 did . Don't really understand why someone would have done that?

Michael, Wow that sounds like a cool project. I wanted to do something along those lines but since it was in such good shape I figured keeping it original would be nice as well.

Brett Houston · Post by **Brett Houston** » 26 Sep 2012 10:18 am

I'm not having any luck with uploading stills.

Here's a video link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnhxZVu-jv0

Edwin Allen · Post by **Edwin Allen** » 26 Sep 2012 3:21 pm

Brett -
The video you posted is very helpful for me resurrecting an early 70's MSA.
If you figure out how to post photos, I'd really appreciate some shots of your guitar showing the crossbars and knee lever mechanisms.
(BTW I posted photos so it can't be 2 hard!)
Thanks - Ed

Brett Houston · Post by **Brett Houston** » 26 Sep 2012 5:22 pm

Hey Ed, send me you email address and I'll send you what I have. I tried to post several times and the screen goes blank after I hit the upload button. Maybe a Mac thing.

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