Scale Questions for the E9 neck, Pentatonic, Melodic Minor

[Travis Lyon]

Hey guys, as some of you may know, I'm a guitarist first, so my approach from the theory standpoint is very scale, interval, and chord based. When I'm soloing over a simple progression, say something as simple as:

| A7 | % | D7 | % |

Depending on the type of sound I'm going for I could use

A Major Pentatonic over the whole progression.
A Minor Pentatonic/A Blues (with the C# and Eb) over everything.
A Mixolydian (A B C# D E F# G) over the A7 and D Mixo over the D7
A Lydian b7 (A B C# D# E F# G) over the A7 and D Lydian b7 over the D7

or a variety of other arpeggio/scale mixes

But my questions here are:

A: Where are the pentatonic scale positions?
B: Where are the melodic minor scale positions (the Lydian b7 is just a mode of that)

I'm trying to figure this stuff out so I can start visualizing the neck a little bit better. I'm looking for both positions with pedals and just lapsteel-esque "Note Pockets", but I can't seem to find any authoritative dictionary on all this stuff for the PSG.

[Bill Moore]

Just play the melody. Or any other Jeff Newman courses.
www.jeffran.com

[Dick Sexton]

lever D lowers string 2 a half step

1°---C ( Ionian) maj7
1
2----------------------------------8
3
4---------------------------------------8
5------------------------8---8A
6-------------8---8B
7--------8
8---8

2°---D ( Dorian ) minor7 ( Bb Major scale)
1--------------------------------------8
2-----------------------------8
3
4----------------------------------8
5-------------------8---8A
6--------8---8B
7---8

3°---E ( Phrygian ) minor7 ( Ab major scale )
1--------------------------------------8
2----------------------------8
3-------------------------------------------8
4---------------------------------8
5----------------8----8A
6---8----8B

4°---F ( Lydian ) maj7 ( G major scale)
1---------------------------------8
2---------------------8
3----------------------------------------8---8B
4---------------------------8
5---------8----8A
6---8B

5°---G ( Mixolydian ) Dom 7th ( F Major scale)
1
2----------------------------------------------15D
3
4------------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------------15----15A
6----------------15----15B
7---------15
8---15

6°---A ( Aéolian ) minor7 ( Eb major scale )
1----------------------------------------------------------15
2-----------------------------------------15D
3
4--------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------15----15A
6----------15----15B
7---15

7° ---B ( Locrian ) minorb5 ( Db major scale )
1-------------------------------------------------15
2---------------------------------15D
3----------------------------------------------------------15
4------------------------------------------15
5------------------15----15A
6---15----15B

1°---C ( Ionian) maj7

1----------------------------------------15
2-------------------------15D
3-----------------------------------------------15----15B
4----------------------------------15
5------------15---15A
6---15B

[Larry Bressington]

Like guitar, most of it is right there within 1-3 fret's apart, you might have to do a string skip here and there depending on note value you are searching for. Most can be found deriving from the MAJOR scale, then deviate for the other notes.

[Marc Friedland]

Hi Travis,

I have scale charts you might find helpful on my website listed below.
Click on the “Free Downloads” and you can choose to view, or download & print any of the instructional material you’re interested in.
Let me know if you have any trouble with this process.
A lot of material will be found in the following three files:
How to read the basic major & minor scales
Basic Major Scales
Basic Minor Scales
And while you're on the website -- check out the Expanded Minor Scales & other free instructional materials, you might find something else you like too.
Obviously there’s no obligation to make a purchase. If you know anyone who might enjoy or benefit from listening to my interpretations and also playing along to the backing tracks of Steel My Guitar Gently Weeps, please direct them to my website. Naturally, I encourage and appreciate anyone who's inspired to buy my CD. Regardless of what kind of music you enjoy playing & listening to, playing along to these melodic songs from the 60’s is an excellent learning tool, particularly in playing with songs that use a lot of Minor chords.

Good luck,
Marc

http://www.PedalSteelGuitarMusic.com

[Dave Grafe]

Try using the 7 string as a root with pedals A+B or depressed - at the nut this is an F#m7, with the root on strings 1 and 7. You can depress pedals B+C to eliminate the minor 7th at string 4, lift the A pedal to access the 4th interval, or lift the B pedal to flat the 3rds at strings 3 and 6 to a 9th, neatly solving the major/minor third conundrum particularly inherent in some blues modes.

You can now use pretty much the same diatonic patterns as you would use in a major mode to walk the neck, only you are now starting from and returning to a different beginning.

[Bill Moore]

Travis, I was only half-kidding when I said "just play the melody". What I was trying to point out is; I think it's a mistake to approach pedal steel from the typical guitarist's point of view. If you look for shortcuts, and believe that just being a competent guitarist will make you a competent steel player, you are on the wrong track, my opinion. Take a look at the tab posted by Dick Sexton; ignore the names, it's plain to see that all of them are just slight variations of the major scale positions. Which is what the modes are.

If you want to play pedal steel, and sound like a steel guitarist, you have to learn scales, and harmonized scales, and how they relate to playing the melody on a pedal steel guitar. It's not that hard, but will take some time and patience. I'm not trying to be negative, but I do think it's a mistake to look for shortcuts and not look at this as a process that will take some time. Some lessons, or using some of the proven instructional material, like Jeff Newman's will help a lot. Good luck to you.

[Travis Lyon]

Thanks for all the responses, and Bill, I most definitely agree. I've had a lesson with Gary Lee Gimble and he covered the basics you're talking about and things far, far beyond my comprehension on the PSG. My problem when approaching new instruments is I always want to be immediately able to play anything I pick up that has strings at the same level I can play guitar, which is not great, but competent. My questions here are because although I want to learn to play PSG like a PSG, I'm looking to be able to use it in some musical contexts that are less common for it. I'm not a bebop player by any means, but I am a groove/funk/acid jazz junkie and I'd like to essentially be able to get the voice I have on the guitar out on the steel. Kind of like how you can tell Jerry Garcia is Jerry Garcia whether he's playing guitar, banjo, or PSG, except I hope to have better intonation on the latter.

[Sam Conomo]

no worries Travis,i will send you all the melodic minor,harmonic minor,and major scale patterns,as they fall accross the neck.Of course you will have to pick out your favourite pockets,like you that is how i learnt guitar.
sam

[Michael Berry]

I'd love to get a copy of those patterns as they fall across the neck if possible

[Sam Conomo]

i have email the charts for all the scales,and some links .
sam.
of course you will have to creat your own set of pockets that work for you out of all these full scales.

[steve takacs]

Sam, would you also please send those scale patterns my way? Thanks, Stevet

[b0b]

If you lower your 2nd and 9th strings to C#, you have the E major or C# minor pentatonic scale on the open strings. (At the third fret it's G major or E minor pentatonic - maybe a bit easier to think about.)

If you then then also lower your E strings to D#, the scale changes to B major or G# minor pentatonic. (At the first fret it's C major and A minor).

It's also worth noting that the C# note is available on strings 5 and 10 with the first pedal. You don't really have to lower 2 and 9 to get it. A lot of pentatonic licks bounce on the first pedal instead of holding in the lever that lowers 2 and 9.

Use the 2nd pedal to get another pentatonic scale position. This one is A major or F# minor on the open strings, and again you can get the C# note on strings 2 and 9 or use the first pedal to get it on strings 5 and 10. At the 10th fret it's E minor pentatonic - very handy for blues.

[Bo Legg]

A Major Pentatonic: the same places you play the A major scale.
A Minor Pentatonic/A Blues: the same places you play the G major scale.
A Mixolydian: the same plsces you play the D major scale.
A Lydian: the same plsces you play an E major scale. D Lydian: the same places you play a A major scale.
I'd just play the A dorian over it for rock or blues,
and the A major or chromatic for all other genre.

[joe wright]

Pentatonic scales are open because they take the full major scale and eliminate the half steps.

C D E F G A B

Remove the F and the B

C D E G A

On an E9th there is a cool pattern you can learn.

Using these strings. 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10

ONLY PEDAL you can move on this is the A pedal!!

First fret HOLD your 4 & 8 lower and only move the A pedal

Third fret HOLD B and only move your A pedal

Eighth fret no peds only use your A pedal

Using the above mentioned strings with the peds/knees at each fret gives you C D E G A!!

This is a C major pentatonic and an A minor pentatonic

Did a video at www.sierrasteels.com on the subject where I give examples. Later...joe

[Travis Lyon]

Thank you Joe, was listening to some of your music earlier today, you're a killer player. And thank you to everyone else here who gave me the lowdowns, good stuff.

[Tim Herbert]

Joe's lessons on the Sierra site are excellent. Thanks Joe!