Sho-Bud pro project????'s

Richard Mitcham · Post by **Richard Mitcham** » 18 Sep 2012 7:45 pm

I found this Sho-Bud, pro-1, 4 knees S-10, #4930. Needs refinished, some rust on two of the legs, Nothing broke, changer seems ok, but its really rough, some should buff out, end plates and screws are still tight in the body. How much is it worth? I can do all the work, see anything that would scare any of you guys? Price, what should I pay for it? Thank You

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 18 Sep 2012 7:52 pm

Nothing that would scare me...Just tear it down slowly and label all the pull's and rods and things on a chart, if it's playing good. Find a good polisher.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 18 Sep 2012 8:38 pm

Maybe it's the out of focus pics, but that changer doesn't look stock to me. At least where the strings pass over the fingers it doesn't...

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 18 Sep 2012 10:55 pm

Yeah, the diameter of the fingers seems to be larger ?

Richard Mitcham · Post by **Richard Mitcham** » 19 Sep 2012 6:13 am

Yes seemed big to me to, about 1 inch in diameter. Lots bigger than my Stage-1. This is the first time around one of these Pro-1's, so nothing to compare it to? Sorry about the out of focused pic's.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 19 Sep 2012 6:46 am

Yeah, they're bigger than normal. It's also pre ProI, since it's a rack and barrel...not that there's anything wrong with that.
It looks like a 6139 to me...a later one, since there's no controls on the rear shelf, and the tap switch is on the endplate.

Richard Mitcham · Post by **Richard Mitcham** » 19 Sep 2012 7:49 am

Yes, it very well could be pre pro-1. It didn't say pro-1 on it anywhere and don't appear to have ever been refinished. The #4930 was on the end plate?

Bob Metzger · Post by **Bob Metzger** » 20 Sep 2012 8:33 am

I bet that endplate number is probably the serial number of that particular steel. With the birdcage/rack&barrels, hex head uc rods and a tapped pickup switch, I'd say it's probably a model 6139 with added knee levers. I've never seen a Pro I with these features but that's not to say that one or three don't exist. Usually I associate the Pro I with nylon tuners, an untapped pickup and the two hole pullers with brass discs (later versions - aluminum discs) used in the 70s.

I had a 6139 with 5 pedals and 4 knee levers that Shot Jackson helped me add to the stock configuration. It was a good sounding steel, not as adjustable as later Sho-Buds but these older Buds are enjoying a bit of a renaissance nowdays and I see alot of players using them and really liking them alot. If you can afford to do so send it to Ricky Davis for a complete refurb - you won't be disappointed. Not all 6139 steels had controls on the front/top bit.

On price, it depends what part of the country you're in. Here in the northeast, supply outstrips demand and there are fewer gigging steel players around here so steels that aren't gig-ready will bring lower bucks than say the south or southwest. I would guesstimate how much money you'd have to put in to be brought into good playing condition. Then I would look and see how much other single neck Buds are selling for. If you attach an hourly wage to your labor and figure that in as well, you'll probably never see anything over $5~10 per hour. If you see this renovation as fun or a labor of love, it would probably be worthwhile. If it is just work and you're doing it to flip the guitar for profit, probably not so worthwhile. OTOH, single neck steels are very popular now.

Bob M.

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 20 Sep 2012 11:21 am

This guitar would have a date of about 2/7/74 and was built during one of the high production cycles. Most likely a model 6148. At this time it appears that they were knocking out 10-12 guitars per day. (Based on S/N's and dates)

It is an early Pro I and built right at the changeover from the R&B, no decal, to the 2 hole pull/barrels w/Pro I decal.

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 20 Sep 2012 11:43 am

James Morehead may still be away on family business, but he's a guru.

Todd Brown · Post by **Todd Brown** » 20 Sep 2012 12:38 pm

I can tell ya just like everybody else, those fingers are not stock. One thing I don't like about Sho-Bud's is the tops of the fingers are higher than the tops of the rollers. This creates an incline on the strings. With those oversized fingers in your guitar that situation would be even more pronounced. Among other problems the oversized radius can cause.

Michael Yahl sells the replacement fingers for the 6139 style Sho-Bud changers on his website. http://www.psgparts.com/Finger-Assembly ... 01-001.htm They should be a drop in replacement in that guitar. Michael makes top shelf parts with excellent customer service to boot. With you paying $700 for that 'Bud, it's very reasonable to spend almost $300 for some correct replacement fingers. He's got 'em in stock and would ship next day. It would be well worth it. After that, clean her up a bit and you should have yourself a nice vintage 'Bud that you could definitely get your money back out of if you wanted to sell later. In other words, you wouldn't be underwater with it.
*Edit*- I thought you had put in your first post before you edited it that the asking price was $700. That, I think, would be fair. But you'd definitely have to put some money and time into it. As it sits from the pics, I wouldn't pay more than $800 with all the things needing to be done to it to get it playable and reliable.

On a side note, those racks should be turned the other way. The spring tip that protrudes from the barrels should hit against the open channel side of the rack. Not the flat side. This gives it 8 possible points of contact against the rack versus 4 points as it's setup now. And yes, most of them did leave the factory that way. But it's not how the rack and barrels were designed to be setup. It will work like that, but it's not the correct way per how that system was designed. Do some searches on R&B Sho-Bud's, you'll see what I mean.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 20 Sep 2012 1:05 pm

Michael,
2/7/74 ---That late? I was thinking that it looked a few years earlier! I'm getting confused again! My S-10, #6535, is a Nov. '74 guitar. At least that's what I recall Gene telling me. It has the brass discs. I thought they started the barrels behind two-hole pullers in '73????
That changer is sure odd. At first glance, I thought it might be an experimental changer between the more modern Pro 1, and my old wood wraparound changer.
1967, #7444

Of course that guitar has the tap switch on the deck. But they kept the switches there, for a time, even after they went to the aluminum changer mount, right? Just from lookin' at it, I was thinking maybe '70-72. I'm thinkin' the tap switch had been moved to the endplate by then. Is the serial number stamped into the wood too? It should be. Arghhhh! Confused again!

Todd Brown · Post by **Todd Brown** » 20 Sep 2012 1:23 pm

Richard, here's what I mean about flipping the crossbars of the racks around. This is how they should be. Open side of the rack facing the barrel. You do this with the rods out, they just flip(rotate) over. No need to unscrew anything. Just remove the rods and flip 'em. This is a R&b guitar that I rebuilt recently.

Some folks talk down on the R & B system which is fine, but I've found them to be very reliable and hold tuning great. Just as long as they are setup correctly. Very easy to work on and add pulls to.

I'm starting to doubt myself on the fingers. From the bottom of the finger assembly, they look stock. From the endplate view, they look stock. It's just the tops of the fingers that are HUGE! Maybe someone replaced the top section of the finger assembly somewhere along the way. Of all the Sho-Bud's I've studied, I've never seen one like this. And if you've studied everything and all thing's Sho-Bud, you know it seemed as if they were trying new things each week. New pulling mechanism's, new undercarriage systems, etc., etc. However, what you've got in that changer has been in there along time. Looks pretty caked up with crud.
If that is stock, I still can't get over the slant with the strings. It bugged the hell out of me. I'm just OCD like that. With this finger tops, that string slop has got to be ridiculous. Here's what those finger tops should look like. This guitar was built October of '73.

If you look at newer guitars that are styled or designed after Sho-Bud's, like Sho-Pro's for example, they have that slant of the strings as well. The tops of the changer fingers are higher than the nut rollers at the keyhead.

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 20 Sep 2012 1:46 pm

Richard,
I vote, not flipping the crossbars. It seems to bend the little protruding spring ends. There's been debate on this in previous threads. Clean the barrels in naptha with a small brush and they will work great. Ron

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 20 Sep 2012 2:27 pm

In my 40 years of foolin' with old Shobuds, I've only seen one with the racks flipped. That is my '67, and they were only flipped because of a manufacturing defect. One of the racks couldn't be flipped into the correct orientation, so Shobud flipped them all, so it wouldn't look like a goofy mistake. The spring tip only needs one point of contact to work perfectly. Flipping them so that the barrel contacts the sharp edges will only wear out the face of the barrel sooner.
Great system. Fun and easy to work on. Timing pulls is the only drawback, and it's never bothered me at all.

Todd Brown · Post by **Todd Brown** » 20 Sep 2012 2:45 pm

I don't see that. It's more of a straight angle for a stop for the tip on the barrel,the way I like. The flat edge of the open channel. Having them flipped the way you suggest provides a more rounded edge stop with the closed side of the rack with it's rounded edges. That seems to me to lead more to bending,marring, and breaking of the tips. I learned that from Michael Yahl who showed me links to a few threads on this forum where it was said that they(the racks) were originally designed to function the "flipped" way. That a few were sent out of the factory like that. Then someone turned them as they are on the OP's guitar. It also worked, so they kept sending the rest like that(not flipped). Then of course, they dumped the racks altogether. I could find the links, but we don't have to get into all that here. It's all opinion, I guess. Both ways do work.

Almost all the tips were broken, bent up and twisted off the barrels on the guitar I pictured before I restored it. Holding tune was possible but difficult. It was really beat up. Those barrels in the pic are brand new from Michael. With barrels that have the correct 3/16" in length or so of straight tip protruding from the barrels and the racks flipped, she purred like a baby kitten. I think that's the way to go.

Good and straight tips of the correct length on the barrels is the key to this system. Both ways will work. I just think the "flipped" way is better long term maintenance wise for the longevity of the barrels. The tiny but key component of this system. And yes, of course don't ever oil the barrels. Keep em clean, dry, and polished. That's what I know.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 20 Sep 2012 4:50 pm

Great work Todd, i'm loving those vintage bud's, it makes me think of all those monsterous tones and lick's Hal Rugg got out of his during the 60's and 70's!

I don't think those finger's will be a problem.

Richard Mitcham · Post by **Richard Mitcham** » 22 Sep 2012 6:32 am

Well folks, Thanks for all the great info and after many thinking hours about it. I ordered a new encore 4x5 by Zum. This Sho-Bud I believe now is a pre Pro-1 still worthy of a rebuild is in Inverness FL. I decided to pass on it. E-mail me for more info if you like.

Richard Mitcham · Post by **Richard Mitcham** » 22 Sep 2012 6:38 am

Todd Brown wrote:I can tell ya just like everybody else, those fingers are not stock. One thing I don't like about Sho-Bud's is the tops of the fingers are higher than the tops of the rollers. This creates an incline on the strings. With those oversized fingers in your guitar that situation would be even more pronounced. Among other problems the oversized radius can cause.

Michael Yahl sells the replacement fingers for the 6139 style Sho-Bud changers on his website. http://www.psgparts.com/Finger-Assembly ... 01-001.htm They should be a drop in replacement in that guitar. Michael makes top shelf parts with excellent customer service to boot. With you paying $700 for that 'Bud, it's very reasonable to spend almost $300 for some correct replacement fingers. He's got 'em in stock and would ship next day. It would be well worth it. After that, clean her up a bit and you should have yourself a nice vintage 'Bud that you could definitely get your money back out of if you wanted to sell later. In other words, you wouldn't be underwater with it.
*Edit*- I thought you had put in your first post before you edited it that the asking price was $700. That, I think, would be fair. But you'd definitely have to put some money and time into it. As it sits from the pics, I wouldn't pay more than $800 with all the things needing to be done to it to get it playable and reliable.

On a side note, those racks should be turned the other way. The spring tip that protrudes from the barrels should hit against the open channel side of the rack. Not the flat side. This gives it 8 possible points of contact against the rack versus 4 points as it's setup now. And yes, most of them did leave the factory that way. But it's not how the rack and barrels were designed to be setup. It will work like that, but it's not the correct way per how that system was designed. Do some searches on R&B Sho-Bud's, you'll see what I mean.

Yes, your right. I did quote the price and edit it back out in case I didn't get it as the owner did come down just a bit on price for me. Thank You.