Tone of older MSA's

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 14 Oct 2002 3:12 pm

I have a '76 S-10 Classic. It has the aluminum pickup pocket, which I am curious about as far as how it effects the tone. Do you guys that have played the MSA's both without and with the pickup pockets notice any significant difference in the tone between the two? I am wondering if the "dark" tonal reputation of older MSA guitars could be linked to the older guitars without the aluminum around the pickup. I don't know that my MSA, with the pocket, is all that dark sounding, although I know it isn't an Emmons or something.

I've put an E-66 pickup on it, the brightness of which I like alot. Were the old pickups part of the "dark" thing?[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 14 October 2002 at 04:52 PM.][This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 14 October 2002 at 04:55 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Oct 2002 4:47 pm

Jeff, Reece found out that you didn't have to add a whole neck made of aluminum to "brighten up the sound". A small aluminum neck "stub", about 6" long worked just as well! This change was incorporated into all of their "Supersustain" guitars.

That "dark sound" that everyone harped on was mostly a myth. The secret to getting just about any sound you want from a steel (old MSA's included) is good technique, as well as a good amp, and knowing how to adjust it. The brighter sound that the SS guitars had was was probably also due, in part, to better pickups, and their smaller/lighter bodies.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 14 October 2002 at 05:51 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 14 Oct 2002 5:08 pm

That "dark sound" that everyone harped on was mostly a myth.

With all due respect, I beg to disagree. Somebody came over to my house recently with a new Carter and we plugged it and my MSA into 2 differnet channels on my mixing board, with identical settings and no volume pedal.

There was a marked contrast in the tone of the 2 guitars. The Carter sounded considerably brighter. Actually I really liked the way it sounded very much. I thought it would make a real nice companion to my MSA.

If I had unlimited funds I'd certainly consider buying one. (As well as a Fulawka and a Zum, and a Millenium, and a Mullen and a Fessy and......)

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 14 Oct 2002 5:43 pm

I didn't have trouble with the tone of the MSA Classic I had in the early 70's, but couldn't get any sustain out of them. I had to run my amp volume up very high to compensate.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 (coming soon)=-

Michael Brebes · Post by **Michael Brebes** » 15 Oct 2002 6:45 am

I found the Super Sustain pickups to be rather dark and muddy. Replaced them on my D10 with L710's, which added a nice sparkle and definition to the sound.

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 15 Oct 2002 7:37 am

I played and promoted MSA for about 5 years. During that time I went through 3 guitars

ne S-12 and two D-12's. The craftsmanship,precision machining,assembly,appearance and playability were all first rate! However,like Jim Smith,I found the sustain greatly lacking. I tried different pickups and other options;none of which helped the problem.
W.C.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Oct 2002 8:01 am

Somebody came over to my house recently with a new Carter and we plugged it and my MSA into 2 differnet channels on my mixing board, with identical settings...

Mike, unknowingly perhaps, you have illustrated one of the most common fallacies about guitars. Why in the world would anyone expect two guitars from different manufacturers to sound the same at identical amplifier settings? I honestly think the hands of many steelers have an aversion to twisting knobs on the amp to get a decent sound. They become "palsied" at the mere thought of going outside of some imaginary limits. I suppose that at one time, they heard that Buddy or Paul sets their amps at "such and such" settings, and then set their own amps thusly. Then...refusing to experiment on their own...they wonder why they don't have a decent sound! It's nothing less than incredible. In fact, I'll wager that, if I were allowed to play both those guitars behind a curtain (with the amp and settings of my choice)...you couldn't tell them apart!

I have seen steelers eyes light up when I play their rig..."How did you get it to sound so good?"...they say. I tell 'em..."you gotta twist the knobs!"

I listened to a steeler once, and he asked me about his tone. I made a simple suggestion to "back off the mids a little, and add some 'verb". My GOD! The guy then proceeded to turn the knobs...like they were a micrometer! I mean, like a quarter of a number on the dials!!! Then he asked.."Is that better?" I laughed and said..."you haven't done anything! What are you...afraid of it?"

I make this challenge (invitation) to anyone!

Bring your ol' "dark sounding" MSA over to my house, and I'll show you just how good it can sound!

Bring your tape recorder too! That way, you'll know it wasn't a dream, and the myth will be forever dispelled. [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 15 October 2002 at 09:01 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 15 Oct 2002 9:02 am

On the original post. Jeff,Good post! I have had many MSA's and yes the later ones with the aluminum pocket and supersustain II sounded better and brighter, cleaner, and more sustain to me.

The first mica D12 I had in 1968 did not have as good a sound as a Emmons or Sho-bud in my opinion. But they were well built and well engineered.

Reece told me , long time ago, they put a full aluminum neck on and kept cutting it off and testing the meters and found the same results with the Short aluminum pocket the pickup was mounted in.

So Donny is right about that. He is also right about "twisting those knobs.

On my maple wood "Universal" S12 MSA , I just pull the BRIGHT switch and can sound almost as tinny as any other guitar..

In my opinion the Best sounding ones were in the later years, the Classic SS .Vintage XL, and the "Universal" S12 triple raise and lower all maple wood bodies and supersustain II........al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 15 October 2002 at 10:07 AM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 15 Oct 2002 11:56 am

Donny, you are SOOO right!! I'm still new at this, but I've seen a lot of posts, asking for so-and-so's amp settings, reverb/delay settings---That's why we pay for them knobs!
"Course, Stevie Ray Vaughn may have had it right, when he said he wanted an amp with one big ol' knob, that just said"MORE."

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 15 Oct 2002 2:01 pm

Donnie, if I may be permitted to quote an old Paul Newman movie, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Obviously any guitar's tone can be tweaked by changing the amp settings. But I was saying that the (or perhaps just my) MSA has an INHERENT tone that's different from the Carter. Of course it can be brightened up, and the Carter's can probably be darkened down. But when the 2 guitars were run through my mixing board with identical settings there was a marked difference in the tone of the 2.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Oct 2002 3:45 pm

...when the 2 guitars were run through my mixing board with identical settings there was a marked difference in the tone of the 2.

Mike, with all due respect...that's an interesting statement, but it could be harmful in the hands of the "uninitiated"! I've even heard 2 p/p Emmons' side-by-side, and they were vastly different.

All I'm trying to get across is that when someone says something like that, it infers that the Carter can only sound bright, and the MSA can only sound dark.

I know better, but novice players might not.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 15 October 2002 at 04:52 PM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 15 Oct 2002 4:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Reece told me , long time ago, they put a full aluminum neck on and kept cutting it off and testing the meters and found the same results with the Short aluminum pocket the pickup was mounted in.

So Donny is right about that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Al and Donny, that is VERY interesting. Thanks everyone, for your thoughts.

I had wondered if the clear, high-endy outline around the tone of my maple-bodied MSA was linked to that aluminum pocket. I connect the tone in some distant way to a Fender Stratocaster not set on the treble pickup. Unlike the preferred settings that Mike P. gives in another thread,(lots of mids and treble on "0"), I must like more highs. With a Nashville 400, I have the bass on 10, the mid at about 11 o'clock, and the treble at 2 to to 4 o'clock. I forget where the variable mid notch is set, except that it is where the manual and everybody seems to like it (800k?) Compared to modern guitars I have played, my MSA does seem to have less sustain. I would guess that more sustain would also change the tone, making it more full but less percussive. A strat is pretty percussive as far as six-string guitars go.

Did the earlier MSA's not have the aluminum frame? Do you guys think that not having more wood in a continuous mass (like with the aluminum frame)lessens the sustain? But I know that the aluminum frame is responsible for a lot of the mechanical positives of my guitar. It stays in tune incredibly well, doesn't break many strings, underside built like a tank, all the favorable comments you always here about older MSA's. It's pretty too, with the birdseye maple.

Even if I get another steel, I'm not sure I would want to get rid of this one. It has a uniquely warm and personal little tone, pleasing in its own way, provided I don't bear down on it and try to squeeze something out of it that isn't there.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 15 Oct 2002 5:56 pm

Did the earlier MSA's not have the aluminum frame?

My early 70's Classic D-12 did.

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 15 Oct 2002 7:17 pm

I've been a die-hard Sho~Bud guy all through my playing days. Last year I traded an amp for a Classic SS. With very little tweaking on the amp, I had it sounding (to my ear) very close to the way my Pro II sounds. I backed-off the presence, treble, bass, and mid's slightly and there it was. It seemed to have a little better sustain, and a little more clarity above the 12th fret. It has the stock Super Sustain pickups, and my Pro II has the original pickups as well. However, a few weeks ago I took the MSA out on a job, and no matter what I did, It had an extremely thin sound on 1st thru 5th strings from the 10th fret on up! (I would say what it reminded me of, but I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings

) I took the Pro II out the next night, and I had utopia once again. I still don't know what caused the unwanted tone.

I agree with Donny: Amp settings can completely control the guitar's tone. All you have to do is tweak it until it fits.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 15 Oct 2002 7:33 pm

I take Mike's point that there may be an inherent difference between the two guitars (or perhaps between the two pickups, Mike? Were they the same?) I also agree with Donny that this inherent difference, if there is one, is not particularly interesting, unless we have no ability to adjust it. In another thread back on 26 August, I posted on this subject:

I think A/B comparisons like that are not very useful at all. Here's why. What we're really interested in is how good each guitar can sound at its best (at least in our hands). So, let's say you do an A/B comparison of 2 guitars, using the same amp, same settings, same cords, picks, volume pedal, etc, etc. and it turns out, say, that one sounds "darker" than the other and we might not care for that dark tone. Are we done? Of course not. If you tweak your amp settings just a little bit, it might sound just as good as the first guitar. With a little more tweaking, it might sound even better than the first. So... do we really care that the two guitars needed different amp settings to achieve the tone you want? I don't. I'll just memorize the settings for each guitar. What I really want to know is how good I can make each guitar sound, not how they sound when you handicap one (or both) by refusing to adjust your amp! Make sense? Well, anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Mike, I know you know all this, of course, but, given how often one hears about such A/B comparisons, there are likely many readers who might do well to consider this point.