Who would be interested in a new kind of Steel Show.........

[Mike Mantey]

I like your idea Wally, that would be a nice place. Never know.

Its interesting if you search out all of the threads asking, " what inspired you to play"? not once does anyone say, " they walked into a steel show and the spark was ignited." Live gigs, local club players, the big concert major artist thing, their recordings, and Television appearances do inspire new players....

With all do respect this is kind of the point. The steel shows are going on, why not get the most out of them. Also I think it would be a great idea to get some agents in these shows so they can scout there next steel players. What better place than when they are all together.

Randy I totally agree about the band, this is one of the biggest things that has been running through my mind about figuring out. The only thing I can think of is tracks, or a couple bands that play a couple different genres (maybe?) That is still a challenge.

Yes, could easily add Buzz to the list. He is a heck of a player, I don't think he is online, but would definetally be invited if it ever happended.

Also this is not a Brand thing it has nothing to do with what guitar you play.

As much as I would love to see the steel guitar in every band and center stage, probably never happen, but if we just spread it to at least more bands, that could help. There is really no boundries, maybe if the steel was showcased in more different kinds of music, and gained popularity then maybe it would bring the steel back prominently into the Country music scene as well. It may just end up being used more than just in the studio or one song, and would create tons of jobs for more steel players. It is not just an instrument where talking about here, it's a whole industry.

[Franklin]

I like your idea Wally, that would be a nice place. Never know.

Its interesting if you search out all of the threads asking, " what inspired you to play"? not once does anyone say, " they walked into a steel show and the spark was ignited." Live gigs, local club players, the big concert major artist thing, their recordings, and Television appearances do inspire new players....

With all do respect this is kind of the point. The steel shows are going on, why not get the most out of them. Also I think it would be a great idea to get some agents in these shows so they can scout there next steel players. What better place than when they are all together.

Steel players already get the most bang considering the limited budgets steel show producers have for putting on the show and the choice to use the same 30 minute 16 hr a day format..........I do wish you luck with your idea which is a good one.....As for getting the musical world to attend......The music styles in all genres that the agents, producers, and artists represent is not instrumentals. ......Whereas steel shows are all about showcasing steel instrumentals........That type of musicianship is not what they look for from us so don't hold your breath waiting for any of them to show up to yours or any existing show.....With them its about playing the song, complimenting the singer, and showing how well and fast someone can adapt creatively to a new song and how well they take directions and can memorize arrangements in every genre.....I believe a show based on those talents would make for a boring show.........I have taken bands to St.Louis and played all styles of music. So did Buddy and Hal.....Its refreshing to hear and play something different well rehearsed....Its also very expensive to make that happen........Paul

[Iestyn Lewis]

I just sat in at a friend's jam session at his church. It was mostly people that play in their regular contemporary worship band. The tunes are very simple straightahead rock-style, 3 or 4 chord songs. I brought my homebuilt 6-string pedal steel. No one had any idea what it was - at all. They LOVED the sound of it. I am not much of a player, so I stuck to chord swells and very simple fills to pad out the sound. I think that kind of playing went well with contemporary worship music.

The problem with E9 tuning and A+B is that it's too easy to make "that" sound, and then it takes the tune from whatever genre it was originally in, straight into the honky-tonk. I'm still struggling with that. I love the instrument, but I think what has to be overcome to get it away from being a one-genre instrument is:

a) - the image - pro, D-10 steel guitars look intimidating. Who wants to even approach something bristling with 9 pedals that weighs 60 pounds.

b) - the sound - an expert can get any tonality they want, but a beginner is going to fall right into A+B all night and eventually the band is going to say, "stop making everything sound so country."

[Brett Day]

I'd love to see more young guys and girls get into pedal steel guitar, so I think a show like this would be a great idea. I think the best thing to do would be to have a variety of styles of music. For fans of todays country, play songs by Brad Paisley, Alan Jackson, George Strait, Josh Turner, Dierks Bentley, Gary Allan, et cetera.

Brett

[David Mason]

I seem to be kind of a one-man noise machine when it comes to asking for better coverage in the magazines. Premier Guitar did a cover story on Daniel Lanois in October 2010, partly on his producing jobs but also on his playing preferences. And after he raves on and on about pedal steel, his desire to play it in a way that's not western-based and how his approach is "string quartet-based" - there's not a bit of followup, not a word about tunings or brands or god-forbid, "copedants." And there have been any number or articles featuring guitarists who play pedal steel also, in Vintage Guitar and Guitar Player magazines too. This goes all the way from Chuck Berry to Steve Morse - and the interviewers and writers just drop it like a hot rock. I don't think it's disdain or laziness, as much as the inability to ask or write anything pertinent or reveal their own ignorance. Peter Thorn and John Bohlinger both write regular columns in Premier Guitar and in their sideman work they both seem to be Nashville-based, but it's just treated as "somebody else's business" - by the national GUITAR magazines. I wonder if an offer to help them understand it better, by an established builder or player, might push that little envelope a little bit, because press coverage can really help, or hurt, a show like this. Premier Guitar seems to have a strong Nashville focus overall, so the continuance of their ignorance may be in our court, to mix a few metaphors. BOTHER THEM....

[James Morehead]

What a great point, David. Seems like just having a steel guitar show like Mike and others(me included) would like to see happen some day, could be likened to this:

Show up in 1850 in New York City with a modern day airplane---you would have to sell the idea very hard to get somebody to actually get INTO it and take a ride, and get them to see the value of such a "machine".

So it seems todays issue of exposing folks to pedal steel guitar. Concerning this concept, we, who are familiar with pedal steel guitar are on the inside looking out, where as the general population is on the outside(not in the "know"), and we need to figure out how to get them to look in. So how can we capture their attention? is the issue. Just having a show "because" would probably net little attention from those we WANT to notice pedal steel guitar.

Just a veiwpoint-----------------

[Mike Perlowin]

The problem with E9 tuning and A+B is that it's too easy to make "that" sound, and then it takes the tune from whatever genre it was originally in, straight into the honky-tonk.

That is not the fault of the tuning. It's the fault of those players who rely on pedal licks instead of learning more about the possibilities inherent in the instrument.

With the sole exception of 3 B6 chords I played on one tune on the Firebird Suite CD (The Maid With the Flaxen Hair,) ALL my classical stuff on all 3 CDs was done on the E9 side of a standard E9/B6 U-12. There's around 90 minutes of music posted on my Soundcloud page and web site, and NONE of it sounds like country style playing.

[Tracy Sheehan]

Mike is the song you play Maiden with the Flaxen hair the same as girl with the flaxen hair? I play girl with the flaxen hair on my violin. Never thought about learning it on steel. I have it on VCR with Heifetz playing it. Of course there is no way i could play it anywhere as well as he did ,no one else either. Also could never get anywhere near his tone as he is playing it on his Guarneri violin.
Thanks. Tracy

[Tracy Sheehan]

Mike is the song you play Maiden with the Flaxen hair the same as girl with the flaxen hair? I play girl with the flaxen hair on my violin. Never thought about learning it on steel. I have it on VCR with Heifetz playing it. Of course there is no way i could play it anywhere as well as he did ,no one else either. Also could never get anywhere near his tone as he is playing it on his Guarneri violin.
Thanks. Tracy

Sorry about the double post.

[Mike Perlowin]

Same piece Tracy, but there is a reason I've not posted it anywhere. This was the very first thing I recorded, and at the time I was still feeling my way around the equipment and figuring out how to use it. I was so concerned with the technical aspects of making the recording that I didn't play enough attention to the way the piece should be phrased.

Consequently, I'm not happy with the way it came out. Like every overly self-critical artist, I'm always finding little faults in all my recordings that nobody else will ever notice, but this is the one tune that really makes me cringe when I hear it.

It's out there, and there's nothing I can do about it now, but I'm actually a little embarrassed by it.

[Tracy Sheehan]

Thanks for the info Mike. That is a beautiful piece and i would not be concerned. I used to play steel in a band with a fiddle player who used to play in the Dallas symphony orchestera. He told me when they had Heifest as a guest he quit classicial and went country. Many a violinist quit after hearing him.
I reaally didn't get back into fiddle until i retired and sold my steels. Do it for a passtime now.

I have always loved classical but was never really very good at it. I admire you tackling classical on steel. Hang in there. Tracy

[Tracy Sheehan]

Mike. I didn't word that right. Meant to say classicial music is not easy to play. But to play it on steel. Now that would be a challange for steelers who get bored and something new if the fickle public would get intersted in it. Tracy

[Iestyn Lewis]

The problem with E9 tuning and A+B is that it's too easy to make "that" sound, and then it takes the tune from whatever genre it was originally in, straight into the honky-tonk.

That is not the fault of the tuning. It's the fault of those players who rely on pedal licks instead of learning more about the possibilities inherent in the instrument.

I agree, in expert hands such as yours, one can get any tonality out of E9. (I just went and listened to your soundcloud music - very, very nice).

Do you have any suggestions for learning materials to "break out" of the A+B stomp rut? I have a nice chord chart and harmonized scale chart:
http://jmlmusic.ca/_misc/Pedal%20Steel% ... DRAFT5.pdf

This has allowed me to add some nice padding and fill out the sound of a group. I find myself reaching for the I-IV and the V-I change over and over again, though. Any pointers to artists, videos or books would be very helpful.

[Daniel Morris]

Interesting thread here. Interesting ideas as well.
I might try to make a steel show that included people like Chas Smith, Susan Alcorn, Bob Hoffnar, Mike Perlowin and others playing outside the box.
But I would tend to believe, with others, that a show that featured steel guitar in various bands, contexts and styles - NOT an all or mostly instrumental steel guitar show per se - would have the best chance at attracting, involving or inspiring younger players.
I hear about younger music fans who detest "country" music, but what they detest is what most here detest - current Nashville machine product. They then say how much they like old George Jones & Buck Owens, as well as Gram Parsons, Neko Case, etc. I cut my teeth on NRPS, Flying Burrito Bros., Commander Cody and the like, but those sounds were fresh and new in their day (revivals of those bands are warmed-over and stale). When Jack White appears on TV with a steel guitarist, that may get someone's attention. Honoring the past is commendable, but we ain't going back. Would Uncle Dave Macon really have recognized Buck Owens as country?
A new type of steel guitar show? Who are we hoping to entertain or inform? Those of us "outside the box" must be careful we don't create our own little musical ghetto. While it seems there is a huge amount of music available, and so much of it is a niche - which is fine - I really think an "alt. steel" show would not be the most beneficial way to open things up for our instrument. We need to think more of an "alt. music" event which simply features steel, and not just have the same licks applied to every genre. (Pardon my stream-of-consciousness post).

[Jerry Overstreet]

I must say I'm a little disappointed to read the comments of some of our high profile players. It seems they want to dismiss the idea before it even has a chance to be tested. Attitudes that have been far too prevalent for far too long and those of far too many steel guitarists, I'm afraid.

I don't see how anyone can claim to be a friend of the instrument while seemingly reluctant to support the event.

I would say this, such an event doesn't have to include only well known and/or monster pickers. You might be surprised at the offerings of some of your weekend warriors and "average" pickers.

Mike's enterprising concept is a way to explore other areas.

Wally has offered a facility for no charge. Why don't we just do it? Pick a date that doesn't interfere with other major steel shows. Block some rooms at a convenient hotel, assemble a group of interested players, back-up bands, and enthusiasts and just see what happens? Let those that want to experience it attend and those that don't just stay home.

You don't necessarily need supportive musicians who read number charts. Nearly any competent musician can read a well written chord chart. I've heard them play music they don't know time and again. Hal Rugg used to write out charts in chord letters....I know because I have some of those from regional shows.
Again, you might even be amazed at how many other styles of music your steel guitar support players are familiar with.

I'll offer to lean on some of my acquaintances to help support mine and anyone else' efforts if an event is held in the winter months.

Let me state that I really don't belong in the same room with some of the names on this forum and in the steel guitar world, but I'm at least willing to lend a hand in performing and attending an event that would give us a different perspective on how to apply the instrument.

It's not important to me whether it expands wide spread acceptability or not. It would just be nice to enjoy it with other like minded folk.

Considering this is another avenue whereby to instrumentally exploit the instrument and it's players I'm in, even if I have to hitchhike to Lubbock with my steel on my back. If it's just a rock 'n roll band doing the same old stuff with a steel guitar thrown in like an afterthought, no I wouldn't be interested in participating.

[Daniel Morris]

If it's just a rock 'n roll band doing the same old stuff with a steel guitar thrown in like an afterthought, no I wouldn't be interested in participating.

Amen to that, Jerry. That was one of my points.

It's not important to me whether it expands wide spread acceptability or not. It would just be nice to enjoy it with other like minded folk.

If we're talking a show for anyone who's interested, it would indeed be nice. I was thinking that, given some previous comments in this and other threads, the steel's profile needed a boost, particularly among younger musicians. I still feel it would have to have an audience in mind to make it successful.

[Barry Blackwood]

If it's just a rock 'n roll band doing the same old stuff with a steel guitar thrown in like an afterthought, no I wouldn't be interested in participating.

There's the rub. It's the material. I wouldn't be interested at all in hearing the steel playing Skynyrd, Metallica, etc. That kind of stuff is at least as well-worn as the country shuffles that so many deride here on a regular basis and honestly, I didn't like it that much when it was new.

[David Mason]

A few direct quotes:

"i would love to see some other stuff that you dont normally see ,that has featured the pedal steel
like the grateful dead,jackson brown,elton john,flying burito brothers,commander coty,new riders of the purple sage......ect just to name a few and done instrumental!"

"It could be anything from Tom Petty to Lynyrd Skynyrd to Metallica, etc. etc."

"A good example of uncharted territory with the steel would be Mike Daly's new album of classic rock tunes on the steel: Chicago, Edgar Winters, Zeppelin, Beck, Allman Bros. All great tunes beautifully done on steel, but certainly not standards on our instrument"

Forty-year-old rock 'n' roll is still FORTY YEARS OLD, and instrumental covers of other people's music are still INSTRUMENTAL COVERS OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MUSIC.

Maybe one thing we should all do is commit the fall months to writing an instrumental, one apiece, each. Worse that can happens is, we learn how not to...

It also occurred to mean that I really have no idea what "popular" is, in the internet age. I looked at the covers of a pile of guitar magazines, and in every single case the cover artist at least got a good start on their career well before there was YouTube or any sort of hope in broadcasting a video over the internet. 15 years ago, just sending a picture was trial-and-error. And yet, every single article now lists YouTube as a primary source, and I wouldn't think of reading a name without dialing it it up. And I wouldn't be surprised if TDPRI, Gearnet, and in our case the SGF are seen as more reliable sources that an old magazine. Certainly any "real" concert has to have some pretty serious pre-concert internet presence to matter.

[Tony Glassman]

If it's a new and different type of show you're looking for, then how about steel guitar cage fights with gorgeous cheer leaders appearing between matches?

[Franklin]

I must say I'm a little disappointed to read the comments of some of our high profile players. It seems they want to dismiss the idea before it even has a chance to be tested. Attitudes that have been far too prevalent for far too long and those of far too many steel guitarists, I'm afraid.

I don't see how anyone can claim to be a friend of the instrument while seemingly reluctant to support the event.

Jerry,

A show like this has been pondered for the last 30 years. Mike Smith and I played a rock Jazz fusion set of all original songs at Cope McDaniel's club show back in the mid 70's....Why do you assume we are against playing different ideas at shows.......Randy just pointed out the staff band rehearsal issue.... It was an issue back then as it is now with playing intricate musical arrangements.

......If I had never gone to a steel show and read some of these threads I would probably never attend one because the truth is I don't want to hear 16 hrs a day of Crazy Arms. Thank God that review is not the truth. Most capable players mix up their sets with various styles of music.

Paul

[Mike Perlowin]

I have a couple of comments.

First, most of the classical pieces I can play live, are no harder than songs like A Way To Survive and Crazy Arms. They are just different.

My secret, if you can call it that, is that I'm not nearly as good a player as people seem to think, but I can read music. I listen to the local classical radio station and when I hear something that I think would make a good steel guitar instrumental, I get the sheet music and try to learn it.

I've said before but it's worth repeating that in my opinion, every steel guitarist should also learn how to learn how to read. And once again, I want to remind everybody that I wrote a short article on how to read music on the E9 neck, which I will send for free to anybody who E-mails me requesting it. (Please E-mail me about this rather than sending me a private message.)

There are thousands of songs in every genre that would sound great on a steel. There is no reason why any half-way decent player can't explore Motown, or play most or all of the songs from Broadway shows like "My Fair Lady" and "The Sound Of Music." The only obstacles are 1- the lack of imagination on the part of some players to look at the possibilities found in different kinds of music and 2- the fact that although EVERY PIECE OF MUSIC THAT HAS EVER BEEN WRITTEN, IS WRITTEN OUT, most steel guitarists can't read it.

I cannot emphasize how valuable knowing how to read music is. This is especially true when you're learning a piece that's got some unusual chords. One of the songs I played in Phoenix last year was Frankie Avalon's "Venus." In the key of C, there is an F# minor 7b5 chord at one point. I could never have figured that out by ear, but once I got the sheet music and read what it was, I was able to figure out how to play it.

Second, and getting back to the subject at hand, I think Randy Beavers is right. The logistics and expense in putting on such a show pretty much guarantee that it can't be done.

HOWEVER, we already have something that sort of comes close. The Phoenix show has always showcased people who play in a much wider variety of styles than either Dallas or St Louis. We have had people play country, jazz, rock, Blues, Hawaiian, R&B, Sacred Steel, classical, pop, Latin, and Dixieland. It is, as far as I know, the most diverse and eclectic show in the country. I've never seen the wide range of styles presented in Phoenix at any other steel show.

I suggest that as many of you as possible, attend the show. It's a great show, put on by a bunch of dedicated people who work their tails off without pay.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Paul, your points are well taken. My comments were not directed at anyone in particular, certainly not you. No one has more wide ranging versatility documented than you.

I didn't say that players like yourself, Randy, Mike Smith et al were against playing different styles of music. I've been witness to all of you guys' amazing diversity.

It just seems that some players are reluctant to support an event that features a different or alternative approach to a steel guitar gathering.

I've been going to the St. Louis show since the 70's and I've seen and heard the amazing scope of music played by some of the best in the business, so I know that not everybody has disdain for anything outside the country scope. I've also been listening to works with the steel guitar being played in innovative ways for years.

I does seem to me that in recent years, the trend at the big shows is moving away from the innovation and experimentation of the earlier eras and more toward traditional things.

One of the reasons I don't attend them anymore is that there is too much of a country music show atmosphere to suit me or perhaps I've been so many times that I've become jaded.
Yet as far as I know there are no restrictions placed on a player's choice of material for those shows, but I would venture a guess that if he strayed too far for too long, he might not be invited back.

Your average convention goer wants to hear country ballads, some hot chicken pickin' and some be-bop, big band stuff, tolerate a little pop and that's about it.

On another level, the year that Buddy Cage played the last Sat. nite slot in St. Louis, I was flabbergasted at the mass exodus from the ballroom shortly after he began. I was almost embarrassed for him. I'm guessing that many people weren't aware of his rock background and probably some were put off by the Deadheads and tie-die posse.
But, if people were aware that this and other alternative styles of music was the focus of the event, those uninterested parties wouldn't waste their time and money attending an event they didn't want to be a part of.

There are always little clusters scattered about the shows that really appreciate and encourage different things though. If we could gather a larger cluster of like-minded individuals to play and attend I think it could be a success or at least not a bust. I don't think you'll be able to entice young people to attend an event featuring an instrument they know little or nothing about no matter the music and that shouldn't be a major concern anyway.

Give the players an hour per slot. 30 mins. is barely enough time to get warmed up. Fewer players needed. 10-15 players for a one day event or perhaps 20 for a week-end would be enough.

Let the focus be on the alternative rather than just tolerate it.

I'm not suggesting that our standard fare should be totally eliminated, but less featured here.

It shouldn't be any more difficult to put together a show of this type than any other steel guitar show.

Anyway, it's up to Mike and the steel guitar populace whether or not an event is accomplished and I support him as well as commend him for his idea.

I'm sure everyone will to glad to know this is my last rambling on the topic. Everybody have a good day

[Bill McCloskey]

Of course, Mike Neer has put on a couple of shows like this, featuring the lap steel but also had Chuck Campbell playing pedal I believe, at the Rodeo Lounge in Manhattan. Great show. Featured players that ARE playing new music and different kinds of music on the steel. It was a well attended event and the music was fantastic.

[George Piburn]

Following up on Bill's entry - I did not take time to read all of the posts, so please forgive if this is already covered.

Is Steel Guitar (Lap - Non Pedal and all the other names) to be included?

Where is the proposed Festival Site?

Vendor Spaces to be offered?

Side Rooms for vendors- sub groups - small side shows similar to the various ones gaining popularity at the current festivals?

GeorgeBoards

[Mike Perlowin]

the year that Buddy Cage played the last Sat. nite slot in St. Louis, I was flabbergasted at the mass exodus from the ballroom shortly after he began. I was almost embarrassed for him. I'm guessing that many people weren't aware of his rock background and probably some were put off by the Deadheads and tie-die posse.

I was there and saw the show. Scotty told me later that he predicted that a lot of people would walk out, and deliberately scheduled Cage to go on last, so that the people who only wanted to hear country could leave and not miss anything.

He also told me that some people were furious with him for even having Cage there at all, and several demanded their money back.

But I think some of that was due to Cage's own attitude. I think Cage projected a certain amount of in-your-face hostility. If you recall Jerry, his lead guitarist wore a woman's dress. That alone was guaranteed to offend many people. I enjoyed the music, but I felt that Cage had contempt for the people attending the convention.

By contrast, a few years later Joe Wright and Sarah Jory did a set together that rocked out as hard as Cage, and the crowd loved it, twin fuzz boxes and all. The difference was that Joe and Sarah (and Bobby and Roy and the other guys in the house band) were having fun, and projecting a sense of joy and love to the audience.

At any rate, people sometimes play rock at the Phoenix show.