Common, Or Uncommon Assembly?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Sep 2002 7:35 am

The limelight is upon the push forward knee lever. I don't recall reading written material on this Forum, information to the effect, outlining who uses it or how it is used.

Bill H.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 18 Sep 2002 7:39 am

Jerry Brightman has one on his Emmons LeGrande III and loves it.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Sep 2002 9:07 am

Jim S.,

Thanks Jim for the "info". I spent some laborious time working out the newest version that is now in place. Lowering strings on an all pull finger, similar to the late Shot Jackson's student model, can amount to plenty of thought. Not to be thwarted, I still like the multitudes of cable usages. As always, diverting energy, and having to be restricted by the simple all-pull finger will create interesting thought patterns. The raises are relatively simple, except for that E9th 4th string that calls for the 1/2 tone lower.
Of course the E to F change, and F# are on the same "line". I really was pleased after developing this one of a kind forward push.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 18 September 2002 at 11:12 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 18 Sep 2002 9:08 am

I'm hoping to have one someday (LKF).
I think this will be a great thing for S12U players.
At the Chatanooga convention last year, the "Mooney" brand of steel guitars displayed a D10 with forward levers for both E9 and C6 left knee stalls.
Currently uncommon, quite likely destined to be an option offered by many builders.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Sep 2002 3:00 pm

Pete B.,

Please let me know when you have the push forward knee lever installed. It certainly is a convenient lever to actuate, and the front of the knee connects very well with the pad.

Bill H.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 18 Sep 2002 8:50 pm

...convenient lever to actuate

CONVENIENT?!?

I've been trying to imagine this all day including making little hip swiveling motions and everything.

I can't imagine this being convenient in any way, shape or form.

How could you EVER use such a device???

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Sep 2002 2:16 am

Marty,

Rest easy Marty. The knee levers are practical in every sense of the word. No, there is nothing preventing a player from having easy access to the design. You can test the concept yourself. While seated in a chair, place a small stand, or chair, etc. against your knee. Note how far you can slide the object away from you by extending the knee forward. Another similar test would involve your feet. While resting on your back with legs fully extended, note how easy it is to shift the forward thrust of either foot, at will. The point is well made, should you try either example of forward pressure.

Bill H.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 19 Sep 2002 9:12 am

When I tried Jerry's LKF at a convention two years ago or so, I found it instantly use-able, and effortless to enguage with respect to fluently executing a musical passage.

Marty, no offence, but with that folded up amp cover you keep under your left heel (or did you say you use a 2x4 sometimes?), it might make a LKF feel wierd for you, if not inconceivable, so I understand your thought process with respect to this concept.

I'm hoping we can sit down to a steel with a LKF at a steel event sometime.
I know I immediatly wanted one.

Do you have a LKV? Does your heel leave the ground when you use it?

My heel leaves the ground when I use my LKV, although I often use it with A+B depressed.
Although, all my knee levers (including LKV and eventually LKF) are set up with just enough room for my pants between leg and lever.
The Ol' "hairy trigger" method!

Again, It was great to meet you and the wife in St.Lou. How's that new gig working out for her?
Best Regards,
Pete B.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 19 September 2002 at 10:17 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 19 Sep 2002 6:45 pm

Believe me Bill, I actually sat at the steel and evaluated this motion and in a word, it sux!

Pete, I feel the same about the verticals. I've pretended to have one to see how it affects my use of the standard pedals and levers and I find it incomprehensible.

Lateral knee levers are the only ones I can envision using without ruining one of my other mandatory motions.

But I actuate my pedals and levers quickly a lot of the time so maybe that's the problem.

Robyn is doing well at the fancy schmancy gig. She's an old pro at the lounge piano thing. She enjoyed visiting w/you too.

BTW, yes, I use a 6" 2x4 under my left heel to bring my foot to parallel w/the pedals.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Sep 2002 9:07 pm

To me, the left knee vertical is easier than either of the right knees. On the right, you have to keep the volume pedal steady.

I use my LKV in conjustion with all of the pedals, and by itself. It is quite natural to me. I can't, however, imagine a forward lever, nor can I adapt to two levers going the same direction (as in two LKL's). I don't like to change my sitting position while I play.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 20 Sep 2002 3:25 am

Marty,

Years ago I managed to contrive a knee lever volume control for a friend. A motorcycle accident had caused a serious problem for him.
It was located on the RKL, and his
pedals were located on the right foot side, due to the mishap. The 2x4 under your left foot gives me a picture of excessive height, where I'm thinking that a little raise of the heel may well be of some benefit. I have considered many times, the posture that is maintained while seated at the steel guitar. Much like the man who carries everything imaginable in his wallet, and when he is seated on a firm surface, a slight pressure is exerted on the spine. If there are consequences that can be traced to cause and effect, I am without proof. That is to say, there is no harm in assuming a watchful stand, in an attempt to prevent injuries directly caused by something overlooked. The 2x4 story reminds me of the time that I found myself setting up for a gig in Claverack, N.Y. I had left two of the steel guitar legs behind, and went into a mad rush to create something to sub for the legs. Luckily, I located a "C" clamp on the premises, and a 2x4. With the 2x4 clamped at the middle of the steel, no one noticed, as I went on to fill the gig. Most assuredly the LKF, and the RKF are workable units. This fact cannot be changed.
I used them 15 years ago to lower the 5th, and augment the 5th to facilitate T. Brumley's "Together Again", and eliminate B. Emmons' slanted bar version of "The Other Woman", this to exemplify that I'm not just whistling "Dixie" here.

Bill H.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 20 Sep 2002 5:17 am

Bobby Lee,

The RVK is problematic, for at least two reasons. Unless a player can manage to use his/her volume pedal as a balance beam, the unsteady foot will soon disrupt a good ascending, and descending volume swell. There are those who exclude the volume pedal. For that particular group of musicians, a RKV eliminates add-ons, of which I will be looking at in the near future. Thanks for the input. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 20 September 2002 at 07:34 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Sep 2002 7:43 am

Great discussion!
I tried the 2nd KL thing for a while (as in LKL2) and found it to be too cumbersome to navigate fluently (for me), so I understand where you guys are coming from.

When I first saw and tried the LKF I was thinking "solution" to the LKL2 that didn't work out!
I made a prototype for my Sierra and hope to fully implement it one of these days.

I don't know that a RKV would work on my guitar, mainly due to lack of open space above my right knee (every pull rod on the guitar takes up space above my right knee... more space opens up going farther towards the left endplate).

Concerning the volume pedal, I've been using my right foot (as in both feet working the pedals) more and more the last few years.
I was down to 7x5 for a while but I've been back up to 9x5 recently, using P9 with the right foot for E9th almost exclusively (F#'s to G raise at the moment).
I sometimes play an entire bridge using right hand technique to control dynamics, and find that method to be an interesting (and fun) juxtaposition of execution vs. the V-ped method.

Fun Stuff!!!
~pete b

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 21 Sep 2002 4:54 am

Pete B.,

I enjoyed reading your input. However, as you can see, this is a new highway of thought. The input has not aroused a large body of commentary. This is surprising, since the the trademark of progressive steel guitarists, is to be constantly in search of new approaches, to gain control of a very difficult instrument. I have a new post in mind to submit, in the hope to stir some of the great minds on the forum into action. Thanks again..

Bill H.[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 21 September 2002 at 06:38 PM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 21 Sep 2002 2:46 pm

Just to keep this discussion alive. Geee -
How many K's do you need???????????

I'm listening now, and have been listening for the past 3 weeks to the Dave Van Allen/Jody Carver "LIVE365" internet referral radio broadcast. Jody Carver is something else. All this great steel playing is done without knees/pedals.

Give me a break. We all should maybe step back a bit and go back and really give this a listen......I'm impressed.....this was from around 1957......tone is impeccable...
somewhere, the growing advent of "new-this" "new-that", got subverted. With all the new additions...{knees/pedals}.....did come the price to pay.........whadda ya guys tink?????????

Thanks Jody........I've loved your extensive music discussions [Fender etc.] and now this
great-great steel guitar you've played. You are surely an unheralded steel player. Thank you, and Dave Van Allen for bringing this remarkable side of you, since I've known and met you thru the SGF, to the general public at large.

ChipsAhoy

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 22 Sep 2002 4:05 am

Chip F.,

Isn't it true that a good percentage of musicians are continuously in search of new ideas and will usually follow trends that have attracted others? Examples to note: The Nashville tuning, changing "amps", because a very well known steel guitarist did so, or suddenly decide that "straight steel" (no pedals or knees) has some advantage over a steel bristling with options,
which allow a player to effectively play chord melody. Trending back to earlier concepts, is a very interesting study. A good example would be to look at trends where some vintage musical instruments have increased in value, according to dealers, by tens of thousands of dollars. Therefore, to justify busting out and exclaiming, "enough already", no more add ons, "those contrivances are not needed", the ambiguous speaker should be taken to task, by a simple request, to express the reasons for making disdainful comments. That is to say, let us read more about the opposition. Who knows, any trend that is accepted by the majority of musicians, should be carefully examined, although a sudden reversion to lap steel may prove to be somewhat difficult.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 23 September 2002 at 04:55 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Sep 2002 7:48 am

I can't stop the ideas from coming into my head, and my hobby is implementing them.
More power to anybody and everybody with their own ideas!... musical, mechanical, or otherwise!

Louis Falardeau · Post by **Louis Falardeau** » 22 Sep 2002 10:02 am

I am interested in the forward lever for my c6th tuning. I have 5 levers working on it now. 3 on left leg and 2 on the right. But I have a pull I want to add that I want on a lever but I don't want a 2nd knee left or a vertical on the right. I have a 2nd knee left on the E9 but I think a second knee left on c6 would not allow me to run the pedal rack. I would like to see how the forward mechanism works. Anyone have a diagram or pic? Regards, Louis

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 22 Sep 2002 10:22 pm

Has anybody considered a "wrist lever" or "forearm lever" that can be implemented with the right hand/forearm? I think I saw a picture of a steel that had two levers that were high eonough and seperated with enough space to accomodate an arm or wrist without any discomfort. You could have two additional changes, one each left and right movement. Think about it...

------------------
kd...and the beat goes on...

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 23 Sep 2002 3:13 am

Kenny D.,

My answer to the suggestion that perhaps a "wrist lever" would be a welcome addition, is an emphatic no. Actually, I tried (3) right fintertip levers mounted at the top between the twelfth fret, and the pick-up in the early "eighties". I utilized attractive chrome automobile directional signal handles, complete with their delicate conformity, platic tips. I attended a jamboree in Adams, Ma., and to my surprise, not one comment was made by fellow musicians alluding to the fact that they were looking for the first time, at something new, and different. At that time, I concluded that one must not presume that scrutiny abounds, and that nothing will go unnoticed. The controls were set up in such a way as to allow the fingers to slide between the levers and effect the changes at will.
Needless to say, it was an experimentation that had a short "lifespan". To iterate one point made, was that any in-depth study of human nature in terms of awareness, to their surroundings, is something that may contain relevant connotations, to survive in the musical world.

Bill H.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 23 Sep 2002 4:06 am

EASY Bill!!! You started getting carried away there toward the end of that post!
It wouldn't be so bad if you could hold your thoughts together.
Your grasp of grammar is not as firm as you seem to think.
Between the two (disorganized thought and incompetent expression) you can be quite unintelligible.

Now, on topic; how about head/neck levers?
Elbow levers?
Shoulder levers?
Behind the calf?
?

Ridiculous!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 23 Sep 2002 7:43 am

Marty P,

Marty you have erred in assuming that I myself am not aware of the benefits of paraphrase, or editing one's own sentence structuring. The real facts are that I see what you see very clearly, rest assured. But there is simply no gain in coaching me in grammar, as I've gone over many writings, including your own, that contain significant grammatical errors. I was led to believe that no hypercritical entity would bother to take issue, of another's writings on this forum, therefore, even though my poor sentence structure exists, I am aware of the fact. It's simply a matter of erasure, and restructuring the English language. Please do not misconstrue this message. I enjoy your input on this forum, and will continue to do so. You are a favorite of mine, and I look forward to your continued critique on all issues.

My message in simple terms that relate to "wrist" levers,was one denoting disapproval. Plain and simple. There should have been no great difficulty involved in the interpretation of my message. Rest assured, I welcome criticism, after all, that's the most helpful human gesture on this planet.

Bill H.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Sep 2002 3:49 am

Some players must have every change they have ever heard. Therefore, forward levers, wrist levers, and "clusters" have come into being. However, these extra changes are not mandatory (or even necessary) to be a great player.

One need only to look at the setups of most "pros" to see that.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 24 Sep 2002 4:21 am

Donny H.,

I did not fail to notice that your wording is carefully selected. You said that "some" and not most players have to have every new change that comes along. I've found by association, that a large number of steel guitarists, tend to pass over new ideas, until some unusual event excites a whim, and then they pursue the add-on with much enthusiasm. Good luck Donny, while you blaze new trails.

Bill H.