A "CARTER STARTER" Has Landed In My Grasp

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Aug 2012 7:24 am

Dickie Whitley,

I don't know if they grow peaches in North Carolina. I've heard about the Georgia "peaches", and I'm assuming there must be some in the Carolinas. That much, I can agree with, as far as what you are pointing out. This thread isn't about you or me, but it does concern the "CARTER STARTER" pedal steel guitar. I can honestly say that the instrument has great possibilities to the handyman who has some musical abilities, and who could easily bring the steel up to any reasonable expectations. It just so happens that I feel qualified to do such work, and that explains why it isn't difficult to see through some of the unprincipled commentary; thank you.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 18 Aug 2012 8:01 am

Bill, the thread truly has nothing to do with me, or peaches for that matter. My comments had to do with your perceived "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude toward Alan and Charles. I'm sorry that it really tweaks your nose that they disagreed with you on the usefulness of the Carter Starter. I tend to agree with them (and yes I owned one, so I know for a fact).

Your comments came across to me as total disrespect and disdain for their (and mine) personal experiences with this instrument. To my opinion, with almost a taint of snobbery attached.

So I go back to my original posting, if you can't tolerate differences of opinion, don't post. But if you do post, I think you need to develope a tolerance of other peoples opinions and not run them down as being "unprincipled" or ignorant.

All the above in my humble opinion.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Aug 2012 9:59 am

Dickie W.,

Alan has always contributed his articles in the past in such a way to suggest that he is a sagacious individual, when the subject moves to musical instruments. I never once considered either of the two gentleman "ignorant". In fact, I wouldn't go that route with anyone, if it could be avoided. It's so easy to misinterpret words in certain matters that finds others in total disagreement with common beliefs.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 18 Aug 2012 1:03 pm

The comment [the instrument has great possibilities to the handyman]

Why would anyone want to spend the time and money trying to convert the Starter into a REAL guitar.All you will wind up with is a tinkered with piece of junk. If your handyman can turn the Starter into a real guitar,I bet he would have better luck at turning an old Yugo into an Aston Martin.

YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 18 Aug 2012 3:18 pm

This complaining and bickering by making derogatory statements about the "CARTER STARTER" pedal steel guitar is unwarranted commentary. The argument that a beginner couldn't make headway on the instrument is not the sort of attitude 3rd parties are going to buy into. There is no truth whatsoever, in those comments. It's a known fact that some beginners are very adept at making their way to the top through perseverance, regardless of provisional or unprofessional standardized musical equipment. Furthermore, as I see it, the "CARTER STARTER" surpasses other student models made in the past.

By saying "There is no truth whatsoever, in those comments.", to whom where you referring then?

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 18 Aug 2012 8:28 pm

By the way Bill,you made this statement to Dickie[I never once considered either of the two gentlemen ignorant.I would'nt go that route with ANYONE]In other words you are saying you would'nt make a derogatory remark about anyone.Remember these[I have no choices in believing that someone has taken Charlie to class about his theatrical manuvering.][Chris,your major problem is becoming more apparent with each responce.You may have a problem with ego.Sticking your fingers into problematic situations, like a tree dweller [THAT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE CALLING HIM A PRIMATE] That can't leave any stone unturned will quite possibly lead to problems.] Another one ? ok,[Arch, how does a bizarre kilted bagpiper such as you wander off,away from the nerve shattering romping about bag piping for all your worth.I know from sources that you have'nt a clue how to tune,play or otherwise have no basic knowledge about the bagpipe.Some of these puzzle pieces comprised of odd balls will be explained ,this is a steel forum not bag pipes and kilts.Bill, do these sound familier ? They should you said them.YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Aug 2012 4:10 am

Some folks have a knack in paraphrastically manipulating the English language. I would think that it's safe to say that almost everyone who offers their opinions, will in 99 percent of the time, recall remarks, or quotations that have been made, even after lengthy periods of time. At least those quips with any degree of logic. A common practice that debaters soon become aware of is known as contextualizing, apparently to devalue another's point of view. The body of the "CARTER STARTER" is as solid as the "PILLARS of HERCULES" by comparison. And everyone must know that you could safely build on such formations.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 19 Aug 2012 8:20 am

In my opinion Charles, Bill is evading a direct answer to your post, but again that was expected.

Bill, in my opinion, Your mannerisms are pedantic: "Pedantic means "like a pedant," someone who's too concerned with literal accuracy or formality. It's a negative term that implies someone is showing off book learning or trivia, especially in a tiresome way." My opinion only, YMMV.

Bill, a forum is a place to communicate ideas and experiences, and learning. Since the forum is use by people of all educational levels, the simpler the form of communication used, the better it is for everyone involved.

Bill, I believe you have a great deal of knowledge to share with this forum, why do you color it with needless "big" words and "flowery" prose when a straight, simple sentence would suffice?

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 19 Aug 2012 9:03 am

Got to hand it to you Bill.you ARE consistent.When you are called out on something you allways respond with nonsignificant unintelligible jargon such as your last post to draw attention elsewhere.You deny making disparaging remarks about forum members,Just gave you three explicit examples. I KNOW you will not own up to the times you have berated other forum members here.You ALLWAYS change the subject with your absurd gooblie gook posts. $:\$ YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Aug 2012 9:12 am

This discussion has gone way off-topic. It started out as an intelligent expression of opinions regarding the Carter Starter, and has mutated into a discussion of the merits and demerits of fora in general.

It can be summarised by saying that different members have varying opinions regarding the value of the Carter Starter: some think it has its potential, while others do not think it to have enough potential to be worth working on. Opinions differ, as on many topics. This particular topic has been discussed many times on the Forum.

Ken Karn · Post by **Ken Karn** » 19 Aug 2012 9:44 am

Bill, thanks for sharing. I'd be very interested in knowing more of your LKR adjustment.
Please PM or email me if this thread has become too tedious for you.
Thnx again,
Ken K

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 19 Aug 2012 9:46 am

Alan, I do not disagree, but I refer you to this statement made by Bill (which I took as referring to you and Charles):

This complaining and bickering by making derogatory statements about the "CARTER STARTER" pedal steel guitar is unwarranted commentary.

My opinion is that you and Charles have a right to express your opinions, experiences, without the statement above being reflected back at you. I don't see what you and Charles said as being "derogatory" in nature. You simply stated facts relating to your experience.

In my opinion, Bill's statement projected a "I'm right, you're wrong" or "you don't know what you're talking about" attitude towards you and Charles that I felt was uncalled for. He could have simply said "I disagree" and left it at that.

Yes Alan, we can agree to disagree and do it respectfully. But in my opinion, Bill started this and I called him on it.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Aug 2012 10:09 am

Alan,

The selling prices of professional double 10 steel guitars have moved closer to the $10,000.00 dollar mark more recently. It seems impossible to fathom these unimaginable absurd price listings that are placed on the new steel guitars. What will ever become of bargains as we once knew them? We are socially impaired.. first the automotive industry goes haywire, followed by housing, then foodstuffs and fuel, and now musical instruments. It should be fun, playing for the door, and making credit card payments for the next 50 years. My defense would be a "CARTER STARTER" upgraded, or a homemade steel guitar. Those who choose to object to such thinking, can buzz off.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 19 Aug 2012 10:15 am

Thank you Bill, for showing your true colors towards those who disagree with you and how you think of them. I will indeed "buzz off", I'm done here. So be it.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Aug 2012 11:03 am

Dickie,

One of the first and most valuable lessons to learn, is saying NO when something doesn't satisfy or measure up to your expectations. I wish that such things as food and fuel needs could be controlled by the consumers. Some people scatter their litter all over creation, but don't attempt to mess up their backyards.. heaven help you if you do. The same practice applies to verbal abuses.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Aug 2012 11:12 am

Bill Hankey wrote:...Those who choose to object to such thinking, can buzz off.

I'm buzzing.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 19 Aug 2012 11:31 am

Bill,other than rare vintage guitars,How many regular production [not special orders] are there in the ten grand price range ? I believe this is a straight foward question.Will you answer ? YOU BETCHA DYK?BC.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Aug 2012 11:48 am

Charles,

Yes, of course! An old friend who has connections told me the other night that his EMMONS Double 10 string is now priced at $7000.00 retail. I believed him after hearing other quotes made recently. How long do you think it will take to increase that price by $3000.00? What you term as special orders, are quality instruments, and to iterate, getting markups nearing the $10,000.00 figure. If Paul Bigsby had lived to a ripe old age, think what he might have charged for his workmanship in today's market prices. An original Solid Body Guitar by Bigsby is valued up to $80,000.00.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Aug 2012 3:04 pm

But it gets to the point of diminishing returns. Once prices cross a threshold in any commodity, demand goes down and sales plummet. Then the producer stops producing. If the demand is high enough, someone else then jumps in with an alternative product at a lower price. I'm not sure what proportion of newly-built pedal steels go to professionals and what proportion go to amateurs. A professional will want the best he can get, but will have to balance his desires against how many paying gigs he has and whether a better instrument will increase his income. On the other hand, an amateur, unless he has unlimited funds, will not buy a new toy if it costs too much. My guess is that most pedal steel guitars are in the hands of amateurs and part-timers.

I don't think many steel guitars end up being junked, so most of the steel guitars ever made are still in existence. Many of them will be stuck away in attics, owned by people who wanted to play steel but didn't realise how difficult it was. Rather than admit their inability, they put it away to come back to, but never do. Eventually they pass on, or they go financially bust, and the instrument comes onto the market. There will always be a continual supply of second-hand instruments on the market.

Ironically, I have many steel guitars which I've collected from various sources over the years, and many old unusable ones that I've renovated, but the only one I've ever bought new is the Carter Starter.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 19 Aug 2012 8:30 pm

Bill As usual not much of an answer,You missed your calling,you should be a politician with all of those anonymous tipsters you have.We were talking about ten grand guitars,seven grand is still a ways off.Maybe three grand is not much to you,But that's a nice hunk of change to this old country boy.[IF Paul Bigsby had lived][How silly]IF a frog had wings he would'nt bump his butt when he hops around.IF,IF,IF. YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Aug 2012 4:10 am

IF a frog had wings he would'nt bump his butt when he hops around.IF,IF,IF.

Thanks Bama, that really paints a funny picture in this ole boys mind.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 20 Aug 2012 8:23 am

Richard,Changing gears for a second here,See you live in Northern Calif,Hope you are safe from the fires there,Been watching on tv what's going on out there.It breaks my heart to see so many lose every thing they have.I have family and in-laws in Southern Calif [Huntington Beach ]In fact my wife is there right now for a couple of weeks on a visit,Hope ya'll stay safe. YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 20 Aug 2012 8:25 am

I'm starting to feel those familiar twinges of regret for letting the "CARTER STARTER" slip away. If the situation presents itself allowing me to attain another "STARTER", I'll most likely add a few changes, to suit my playing style.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 20 Aug 2012 8:48 am

I regret letting a Zum Uni-12 slip away years ago.Will NEVER regret letting a Starter get away.

YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 20 Aug 2012 8:53 am

What changes would you make, Bill ?

As I mentioned, I raised the legs on mine, changed the pickup and put Emmons pedals on it. I was thinking of changing the knee levers and repositioning them. I'm none too keen on the black Formica, but that's just a personal choice and there are those who swear by black instruments. The mechanism is basically good, although difficult to change round, but I've thought of just taking the mechanism and building a completely new instrument around it, maybe an acoustic one with a resonator.