White PLASTIC plates for Ric B6 ? ? ?

[Denny Turner]

I recently purchased a 1938-39 (???) Ric B6 (but not had enough time yet to confirm all of it's year ID features). It arrived with both of it's white celluloid plastic body-cavity cover plates broken on the treble bout side. Does anyone have any clue where I might acquire original white PLASTIC replacements, .....and if I were to find them, about how much should I expect to pay?

Does anyone know what the year of manufacture cusps were between the chrome plates, white plastic plates and the white painted metal plates?

Any info greatly appreciated.

[Rick Aiello]

The plates are celluloid.

Sometime .... Circa 1939 ... A few changes were made.

The white enameled plates came first ... On the first "Wartimes" ... Knobs on audience side, white outlined frets.

They then switched to the celluloid plates and white tuner buttons ... Presumably to save metals for the war effort.

After the war ... They went back to white enameled plates ...

Here's some fun bathroom reading that helps pinpoint changes in prewar Bakelites ...

http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m6m5s1_1.htm

I had a few spare celluloids ... But gave them to a forum member years ago.

Good luck in your search ... Probably be easier to have a sheet metal pro fashion you a set ... And paint them

[Ray Montee]

Don't forget now.......

I've seen some of those plates painted BLACK, BROWN,
MAGENTA or whatever.

While the metal plates are tapered to meet the edges of the Bakelite body........

some of the celluloid (sp?) plates appear to be quite thick, possibly 1/16 to 1/8 inch.

[Denny Turner]

Thank You, Rick.

I hope and trust that "all" is going reasonably well for you.

I'll edit 'bakelite' to 'celluloid' to avoid any confusion.

During the war years I suppose that celluloid was "gun cotton" celluloid rather than the more stable "acetate" celluloid that enetered the market in the early 1950s ???

Your era lineage conforms exactly to the B6s coming in steadily from recent "binge" buying. I had to sell my dear '37 B6 several years ago, ...fondling her to blues tracks and a pint of Jack Daniels the night before sending her off; ..... been jonesing ever since ...... and fell off the wagon when a 40 year overdue VA check finally came in recently. Now I can not only play them but get to fondle them like a dirty old man while cleaning them up to 9/10 !

I've had and seen numerous inquiries about where to get the plastic cover plates; And now I find myself in the same position of trying to find those hens teeth.

Although white painted metal plates are great for personal playing, .....I (and others) feel that having milk-white plastic cover plates is important to folks wanting replacement plates more like the originals during the celluloid period.

Since the plastic cover plates seem to be rare as hens teeth, especially in matching aged-color sets, ....I'm trying to brainstorm means to efficiently & economically make replacement batches without injection molding prohibitive to my means. I am currently leaning towards pow-wowing with local plastic sheet vendors and sign companies. I used to work in sign companies long ago that did relatively simple vacuum molding of oven-heated acrylic and literally bullet-proof Lexan sheets, which I think could be similarly incorporated into plaster of paris vacuum or pressure droop molds, ....or by using the plaster of paris wax displacement molding methods (there's enough left of the lower treble bout piece I have to reconstruct a positive molding plug to give to a jeweler to make a heartier positive plug). Or if I can find the milk-white acrylic (or preferably lexan) thick enough, then running a batch via CNC might be an option.

Or sumting lidat............

[Denny Turner]

Thank You for the reminders, Skipper.

And HEY, ....now that I know their material is celluloid ....making some hot-pink / magenta swirl MOTS cover plates comes to mind ! (NOT.... the only source I know that makes MOTS to shave slices from ...is in Italy and charges a fortune for a cube big enough to slice authentic "vintage" pickguards from).

[Denny Turner]

Hmmmmmm..... it occurs to me that as relatively "easy" as it is to make thick solid color celluloid sheets; That might be a consideration since such sheets might droop right into a plaster of paris mold via a wet acetone rag "stretched" over the top; MANY safety precautions in place, of course.

Anyone here ever made home-made celluloid ?

[Steve Hamill]

Or you could go with something less traditional yet still quite beautiful!

[Denny Turner]

WOW Steve, that's a mighty fine looking idea and work there !

If I had the luxury to keep the damaged B6 for myself I would have to do something attractive like that; But the B6 now being spoken-for shop inventory waiting it's place in line for the repair bench, evem making replacement covers would pretty much have to be as close to original as I can reasonably get, to optimize the potential value of not being original .....until I MIGHT be able to find original plastic covers or have to settle for white metal ones. Or sump'n like that ....a bit perplexing, but time will tell.

Best Wishes,

[Steve Hamill]

The B6 was redone by Bill Hardin for Geri Valdriz. In addition to the plates it has a maple neck 24" scale and some abalone and rope trim. It plays like a dream with zero tuning issues. I have custody of it until Geri wants it back. Understand if your trying to restore for shop inventory. Best of luck finding them.

[Alan Brookes]

I restored an old New Yorker with the white celluloid cracked. I glued the celluloid back together with superglue, and sanded it with very small grit emery paper. Then I gave it a light coat of flat varnish. You can see the crack if you look for it, but at normal viewing distances it's invisible.

[Glenn Uhler]

I have some old white Gravoply material that has aged to a nice antique yellow/ivory color. You could make a set of covers from this material. I would offer to do it, but I am working on too many other projects right now. Let me know if you want a closer look at the material.

[Bob Stone]

Steve,

I really like what you did with the wooden decorative plates on the Ric. Very nice.

[Denny Turner]

Gentlemen,

Thank You very much for your info and suggestions.

Just a bumperoo reminder that my needs are two-fold:
(1) Finding original replacement celluloid plastic cover plates, and;
(2) Entertaining / brain-storming the feasibility of making close replica replacements; And info and suggestions in that regard for me and SGF archive.

Thank You,
Best Wishes,

[Rick Aiello]

I seem to remember that the ones I had ... Had "raised" platforms for the audience side tone and volume flying saucer knobs ... And maybe even the words "tone" and " vol" embossed on them.

Or it may have been a hallucination ... Which is always possible

Both celluloid B6s that I bought had broken plates ... Very brittle from outgassing I guess ... Couldn't even mix/match to get one usable set ... Eventually gave the pieces away to a forum member.

Personally, I didn't care for them much anyway ... I didn't find the ones I had attractive, probably due to their degradation over time. They were off-white and semiopaque.

Good luck in your quest ...

[Denny Turner]

Thanks for the info, Rick.

"raised" platforms.....

Yessir to the platforms and volume / tone & increments molded around the perimeter of the platforms; Providing 2 level spots to mount the pots / knobs on the compound curve of the cover plates surface.

brittle from outgassing ... didn't find the ones I had attractive.....

The cover plates on the subject one I bought looked like new ...beautiful... and one of the reasons I bought it ...and "gasped" when I received and opened it to find 2 tone bars had tumbled around all over the guitar during shipping transit due to woefully inadequate packing, ...and 2 of the plates broken by the bars.

1 OF SEVERAL PHOTOS IN AD I PURCHASED FROM:






VIEWS OF OPENING WHEN RECEIVED:








------------------------------

After doing faux repairs to old celluloid pickguards ...(usually cracks and tabs broken around screw holes), ...a bath of Ace Hardware 'Lub-E' aerosol light oil "rejuvenates" the celluloid quite well; Whether chemically or mechanically / hydraulicly I don't know, but makes them much nicer looking and more hardy. The subject broken cover plates might be faux repairable, ...and OK were this guitar destined to be my own personal player; But destined for shop inventory, striving for an original guitar to pass ultra-violet / black light inspections by / for customers, ...faux repairs "must" be disclosed and thus devalues the originality of a guitar business / pricing / honesty wise. ~~~~~~~ But again, 2 issues: Personal players and inventory in original condition, ...and thus 2 closely related avenues to explore (alternative and replacement).

I really appreciate the great info being posted here, as well as being sent in emails and PMs. Thank You.

Darn it's getting late ....can't tell if this is making much sense; Often means it ain't! Better I get to bed ........

[George Piburn]

Hello Denny and everyone.

GeorgeBoards is currently working with a plastics shop on many of our new made in USA Products.

This place is a specialty shop that thrives on custom heat molded items made exactly as described by Denny earlier in this thread. They have the mold- counter mold and the materials and capability to create exactly these items. Same with an abundance of materials to use as the parts. They have staff that is trained in custom made items and the artistic knowledge and desire to do items relating to instruments.

I've have discussed this topic with them, as with all serious projects , it takes some up front investment to get an after market product happening.

Hopefully this adds a "Get -Er- Done" aspect to this discussion.

[Alan Brookes]

...I've have discussed this topic with them, as with all serious projects , it takes some up front investment to get an after market product happening...

Next time you're talking to them, George, you might mention replacement mechanism covers for the old MultiKords. They've nearly all disintegrated over the years.

[Ron Whitfield]

I bought it ...and "gasped" to find 2 tone bars had tumbled around and 2 of the plates broken by the bars.

That's beyond criminally stupid. The seller should be gasping his last.

[Jon Flynn]

I'm not sure how I can help George or someone else "get 'er done," but I'd LOVE see replacement plates available for my B6, too! Please let's keep this discussion going!

[George Piburn]

I personally have zero knowledge about the Ricky's History , and so on.

A few Questions If I May -

Are these covers universal to all of these various models ?
How many of this one type Denny Has would you say are out there ?
How many folks would realistically buy them as retro kits?
Will some one be willing to give up a set to be molded from ?

[Jon Flynn]

George,

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that all the plastic plates were the same and they were only used in the wartime era. I have no idea how many are still in circulation.

I would wager a guess that the plates would fit any pre-war (metal plates) or wartime (plastic) guitar that had volume and tone knobs on the treble side. I don't know if they'd be interchangeable with a post-war guitar (metal plates). I don't know if anyone would need to.

I would buy a kit.

If a person gave up a set to be molded from, would that set be damaged in the process? I would consider giving up my set, but 2 of the five plates are broken. The remaining three might be candidates, though.

[Denny Turner]

George (et al)

My dear old Friend, I apologize for not being able to get back to your email and get back here adequate enough. My old computer is intermitingly giving me fits during a very challenging transfer-files to a newer / better computer that ain't done yet; I'm afraid I've had the old gal working the streets a bit too long and hard. And as Murphy would have it, she is overloaded, confused and gets impossible to deal with at the most un-opportune (opportune?) times.

(George): A few Questions If I May -

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Q: Are these covers universal to all of these various models ?

A: I believe all are interchangeable throughout the bakelite period 1935 to late 1950s, although pot / knob placement was different prior to 1938. Except for strings-through bridge and holes being eliminated for most of the chrome tailpiece period (having nothing to do with the body cavities cover plates), I have assumed that the remaining body mold was the same, and with very tight molding tolerances; And just now briefly looking at 5 from 1937 thru 1950ish, my assumption remains.

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Q: How many of this one type Denny Has would you say are out there ?

A: I think that is nigh impossible to determine. But indicators might roughly be 24 years of metal plates and 4 years of plastic plates, averaging out the mixed-plates transition to and from plastic ca. 1940 and 1945. B6s and their other named models are common here in the special interest captive market of the SGF, and not uncommon at all on ebay.

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Q: How many folks would realistically buy them as retro kits?

A: With the above in mind I suppose a SWAG (over the last month or-so mulling it around) that 1 set of high quality exact-shape replica plates could be sold per week for about 2 years IF some thoughtful promo were done regarding originality during the WWII period, the sturdiness & features of the replicas, etc. So my SWAG comes out to only about 100 sets (including less than full set sales) before tapering off from saturated captive special interest market into tumbling dice; And that might be a far reach.

I think there is a good possibility that there might be a market for custom colored plates as Steve Hamill's handsome example suggests. And that is just a matter of changing the color of the plastic in the molding machinery and maybe a multi-channel injector for different color swirls and such. If 2 color laminates could be droop molded, then CNC custom engraving could also be incorporated.

But these limited production numbers for commercial start-up and production keeps my attention on a method of small-shop / "one"-off production as needed.

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Q: Will some one be willing to give up a set to be molded from ?

A: You would be welcome to the set I have with 2 of 5 plates broken, but able to be glued & patched & fine sanded / polished into a CAD-laser model or wax plug mold model.

BUT that is if the Seller and I can reach an adjusted price agreement to the B6's damaged value (a major part of my inquiry here), which I would think we should reach rather than returning it to him for a refund and him (apparantly with no appreciable vintage guitar experience) facing what we are discussing, or him "tossing it in the trash" (which he mentioned ! .....CRINGE).

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Pots / knobs placement to the lower treble bout occured in 1938, and remained there thereafter. And I think Jon Flynn is right that the most captive interest would be to keep / make WWII period B6's original with plastic plates, ALTHOUGH if replicas were very durable and right-on there would be some interest from being the only replicas for replacing bad or missing metal plates. And again, proper promo where people needing them would notice would be key (to the rather finite quantity measure of success at hand).

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And anyone PLEASE correct any errors my old brain might fart; All too often as the years catch up.

Thank You,
Very Best Wishes,

[George Piburn]

Dear Jon and who ever else is following this thread for now.

I was at the Plastics shop all day again for other products we are developing for our parts catalog.

I talked with the mold maker,(35 Years + experience). He told me to figure on 100 - 200 dollars each to create a molded tool for reproduction. This tool will last for many pieces.

That is 500 to 1000 dollars to start to get ready to create 5 unique pieces. This cost must be amortized across the number of pieces.
5 pieces only = 200 dollars per piece to create the tools.
100 pieces only = 2 dollars per piece to create the tools.

Then there is the cost for the material , - heat and molding process, which is done in unison time wise.

After --- they need to be sanded -planed to create the flatness on the bottom where it attaches to the body.
Next they need through holes created and drilled , to exacting placement of the hold down screws.

Estimate 25.00 per each element 125.00 total for 5 elements.

They do work with broken originals, glue them back together and create the reverse casts , then painstakingly clean those up to create the tools. He told me that they can use a release agent spray that will preserve the originals, but no guarantees - working with fragile materials.

This shop also has a CNC Laser engraver , which i am currently using to great success. They are willing to do one off laser burns for all sorts of cool visuals signatures and so on.

This could most likely solve and placement of controls for some of the more unique items.

[Denny Turner]

George,

Thank You for your good johnny-on-the-spot work and info (as usual!).

Can the molding be done with all 5 pieces connected with molding channels, like plastic model airplanne / car kits, ...rather than 5 separate molds setup and runs?

Also, what is the most durable plastic with the longest longevity the molding company can use; (Durability against dropping a tone bar or worse on a cover plate, ...getting brittle or shrinking over time, ... etc.).

-------

ps: Do these people make other adult toys ! ?

[George Piburn]

Dear Denny and whom ever else would like to invest into a Business - Hobby Opportunity.
GeorgeBoards Manufacturing can facilitate this adventure and have you in cottage business very quickly.

100 sets of the 5 elements OEM Cost $175.00 per set.
25% down payment - 90 day window to complete the production samples and be ready to start production.
25% prepaid 1 group of 25 pieces.
50% prepaid for remaining pieces.

This is a very nice opportunity for some one -- this offer good for 30 days at these numbers.