Which All-pull sounds closest to a Push-Pull

Steve Hellerich · Post by **Steve Hellerich** » 25 Aug 2002 4:48 pm

In the hands of BE everything sounds like a 66 p/p I have heard him play six different brands and he gets the same great tone! The hands of the master.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 25 Aug 2002 5:02 pm

Jim,
That Derby I had just didn't cut it in the tone department for me. Maybe it was somethng else or the cat but every guitar I've played before or since sounded better to my ears. I've got a 72 Sho-Bud I'm playing right now with the single coils and it's got that Derby beat too. I was thinking about new pick-ups and may try a BL-910 on the E9 neck but last night it sounded better yet. I practiced about an hour before we started and that never hurts either. That Derby sounded like a plywood guitar to me. No tone at all. I think plywood should be used for flooring not guitar building. Ever hear these jazz guitar players, Joe Pass, guys like that? They all seems to have a very flat, no reverb, bassy kind of tone. It's fine for what they do but I never could figure why their tone didn't vary more. Chalker had that kind of tone. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag but I guess I'm more into the Lloyd, Buddy, Hughey kind of tones.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 25 Aug 2002 5:16 pm

I think I have one of Herby's old courses around here somewhere with a picture of him playing an MSA.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 25 Aug 2002 6:56 pm

I suggest keeping the guitar you currently play and trying different amps. I've been on a "holy grail" search for tone too but I've focused the amp and how amps affect tone. What I use now is as good as anything I've heard on record. Not that I'm as good, of course, but tonally, I'm getting the sound I've always wanted. It's so good, I don't want to do anything but play all the time, no more frustration and wondering why I can't get "that sound" anymore. (E-mail me for details.)

Remember, what you're hearing Buddy play on record and CD has been processed in the studio. Studio reverbs and delays can affect tone considerably. No question you need a good axe to begin with, buy hey guys, these PSGs are very similar, they're made of the same materials. There's probably as much variance between different individual guitars of the same brand and model as there is between different brands.

Could you tell the difference between a vintage Fender Strat and a Squire reissue? I've heard good players sound wonderful on the Squire.

OK, OK, I won't argue with you if you've played a dozen different steels and know first hand the subtle differences. Are you sure-- what if you found a brand X that sounds amazing? It happens.

I'm just saying that amps differ quite a bit and you might be surprised what different sounds tube amps get from Solid State, and how different speakers and FX affect tone, etc.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 25 Aug 2002 6:58 pm

In terms of feel, there's no question that the Emmons LeGrande feels most like a PP Emmons in terms of pedal action. For some people this is a positive, for me it's a negative.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Aug 2002 8:40 pm

Bobby Boggs - You left out the Kline!

Bruce Hamilton · Post by **Bruce Hamilton** » 26 Aug 2002 5:37 am

With all due respect to the people who have commented I don't think Dag was asking what guitar in your opinion sounded like a p/p but what guitars have you a&b ed to determine your opinions and what were the results. When you A&B guitars you eliminate veriables such as "its in the hands" "its in the amp" "so and so (enter any major player,usually BE)can play anything and make it sound goood".You are just comparing one guitar against another side by side with you playing and listening. When I A&B guitars I use the same amp,volume pedal,cords,picks and the same room so that all the above veriables have been removed even when you compare another guitar at a different time. It may not completely scientific but it sure beats what I have read so far.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 26 Aug 2002 6:31 am

Well, perhaps that is what Dag meant, but I'd like to opine here that I think A/B comparisons like that are not very useful at all. Here's why. What we're really interested in is how good each guitar can sound at its best (at least in our hands). So, let's say you do an A/B comparison of 2 guitars, using the same amp, same settings, same cords, picks, volume pedal, etc, etc. and it turns out, say, that one sounds "darker" than the other and we might not care for that dark tone. Are we done? Of course not. If you tweak your amp settings just a little bit, it might sound just as good as the first guitar. With a little more tweaking, it might sound even better than the first. So... do we really care that the two guitars needed different amp settings to achieve the tone you want? I don't. I'll just memorize the settings for each guitar. What I really want to know is how good I can make each guitar sound, not how they sound when you handicap one (or both) by refusing to adjust your amp! Make sense? Well, anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 26 August 2002 at 07:53 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 26 Aug 2002 6:48 am

. That Derby sounded like a plywood guitar to me. No tone at all.

mmmmmm???
Love my Derby. and the "plywood sound" , but that's personal

JJ
www.steeljj.com

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 26 Aug 2002 7:17 am

Good point Jim.You got me b0b.

And Johan I had a Derby that sounded really good.The topic (Which All-pull sounds closest to a Push-Pull).Depends on which push pull your asking about.I've owned 5, played many more.My point.With the same pickups etc.Some sounded more (Push Pull) than others. [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 26 August 2002 at 12:12 PM.]

Bruce Hamilton · Post by **Bruce Hamilton** » 26 Aug 2002 8:11 am

Jim, when I do an A&B comparison I also do the tweak thing. But I have been nothing but discouraged with it. This is how I got into A&Bing guitars. I would be playing an all pull guitar and thinking this guitar can sound just like a p/p but when I played them side by side the all pull would get totally buried. Then I would start tweaking with the hope of EQuing the difference but it was never in the cards. Again this is not saying that the p/p is better than any other the guitar. Its just hard to duplicate.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 26 Aug 2002 10:42 am

Jim Cohen has got it absolutely spot-on. I A/B'd my Emmons P/P and my Carter BCT some months ago. I tweaked the EQ to get the best out of both steels, if the Emmons was 10, the Carter was 9.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 26 Aug 2002 11:39 am

I think the majority of difference between guitars (playing ability aside) is in the pickup.Mostly I'm talking about old school single-coil vs modern humbucking designs.To me the tone of an old Emmons or Sho-Bud resides in those original old single coil pickups and it amazes me that someone would seek out a '66 PP or a '60s 'Bud for their elusive "tone" and then put a GeorgeL or BL humbucker on it. On the other hand however, if you were to take a Carter,Zum,Fessy,Franklin or what have you and put a 17.5 ohm single coil on it,dialed in the amp and played accordingly,it could sound very much like an old Emmons or 'Bud.

Dag Wolf · Post by **Dag Wolf** » 26 Aug 2002 11:42 am

I had a JCH that sounded real close to a PP but I didn`t have the chance to A-B. I sold my PP before I bought the JCH.
First time I sat down behind the JCH I had to tune it. I hit the 4th string and reached for the peg - grabbed it and WOOOW.... At first I thought I got an electrical shock but NO it was simply the vibration from the string.

I`m not a steel builder myself but this steel was obviously very well put togheter.
So I hooked it up and must say that the sound was the closest thing to an PP that I have been with an allpull steel.

I had a second JCH that didn`t have the same string vibration through the body and it didn`t sound as good either.

I hope the next JCH I have on it`s way to me do have the same "vibrations". I think this is a key to good tone and hopefully it gives a little bit of that Emmons PP sound.

I kind of getting the "bolt on " itch....any 66 model for sale out there?

Thank you for great inputs. I think we all do learn something new everyday on this forum.

Thanks,
Dag

[This message was edited by Dag Wolf on 26 August 2002 at 12:44 PM.]

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 26 Aug 2002 11:47 am

As far as A/B-ing and tweaking go, I did that extensively for about a year. During that time I owned and compared three PP's (plus a '66 bolt-on on loan from Rick Price), three Sho Buds, and a Zum. I recorded a lot with all of them too. I must be deaf, (or dumb!), but at the end of the day there wasn't a dime's worth of difference in sound between any of them, at least "IN MY HANDS". I think no matter what you play, you're going to tweak your settings to get it close to what your ear wants to hear. Then your head, hands, and heart do most of the rest. The guitar is important for sure,and some are better than others in certain areas, but it is not the end of the story by any means.[This message was edited by Tommy Detamore on 26 August 2002 at 07:46 PM.]

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 26 Aug 2002 5:39 pm

Interesting comment from a qualified player. Of course, Tommy plays so wonderfully, it's probably academic which guitar he plays.

I think a big factor is how different ears hear sound. I've heard lots of praise regarding old-style single coil pickups and to me they just sound thin and nasally. Of course the PP crowd will say, "well duh, that's the point." I realize that in the case of B.E. he's recorded plenty and on a variety of instruments. I prefer the sound that's a bit darker, mellower, if you will. I think that's from his EMCI phase. "Someday Soon" is a beautiful tone, it must be from the PP era, no? Well, the EQ on that session was just right. Point is, he always gets a great sound. Sorta like, "which Eric Clapton sound do you prefer, the humbucker-Gibson sound or the various Strat tones?" Mmmm, tough call. To me, it's all Eric and all great.

I've replaced the single coil stock pickups from the Sho~Bud and the Zum guitars I've owned. Both occasions I replaced them with the George-L 10-1 pickup and, to my ear, improved the sound. Bruce was not amused when I told him that. What's important is how it sounds to me and it helps my performance.
--JR

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 27 Aug 2002 6:50 am

John

Funny you mentioned Clapton. He is my original mentor/hero/influence. I think his tone has gone downhill over the years. His "Cream" Gibson/Marshall tone stll defines what rock guitar should be. (Listen to "Crossroads, live at the Fillmore)

I bought a '58 strat when he went to Strats, an EC sig. model when they came out, but still love the "Cream" tone.

What's funny is, that after playing my Franklin w/ 705's for the last 6 years exclusively, I pulled my Crawford built '78 push/pull out 2 weeks ago and am completely in love again. And I didn't even change any preamp/amp settings!

bob

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Aug 2002 7:14 am

And I didn't even change any preamp/amp settings!

Well, you should!

(jus' kidding; see above)

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 27 Aug 2002 7:35 am

Jim
I was really surprised that I didn't have to tweak anything cuz I'm a tone tweaker. This doesn't mean they sounded the same by any means; The Emmons is clearer and lo/hi notes are more defined. Even my bandmates were all wowed!

I do go through a GP-100 into 2 steel amps, and I'm sure if I took both guitars directly into an amp, I would have to some serious adjusting.

I think my Emmons pu's must be darker than most because they seem to have more of a nice mid bite (not muddy!) rather than a bright treble bite.

If I swith from my Strat to my 335, I have to do major tweaking through the same amp.

bob

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 27 Aug 2002 9:12 am

Some of the best sounding guitars that I've heard have been contructed of dieboard- actually a high quality plywood~ so no dissin' plywood~~~

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 27 Aug 2002 10:12 am

Here, here!! You go Jim! I totally agree. By the way, how are things in Heaven, oops, I mean; Oceanside?

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 27 Aug 2002 1:17 pm

To anyone that can't tell "a dimes worth of difference between a Emmons push-pull and any other steel guitar after playing them all with their own hands, either needs new hands or new ears.
However, if you can't tell the difference in guitars, this could be good since you have a whole world of guitars that will suit you just fine, where as I only have a very small choice of guitars to satisfy my tonal appetite.
As I have said before, "If you can't tell the difference, it really doesn't matter." Unfortunatly, as are several players I know,I am cursed by being able to distingush the differences between the different brands. Sometimes I wish I couldn't. I have four favorite "old" brand guitars that I love very much. New guitars? One, possibly two.
However, this is my taste,after 45 years of playing, everyone has their own opinion.

Bobbe Seymour

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 27 Aug 2002 1:49 pm

You are so right Bobbe! That's the very reason I'm back to the p/p. There's just nothing that sounds like them. My problem was I played one for so long and nothing else would match up so I had to get back to that sound. The Sho-Bud ain't bad but it ain't no p/p.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 27 Aug 2002 2:08 pm

....."To anyone that can't tell "a dimes worth of difference between a Emmons push-pull and any other steel guitar after playing them all with their own hands, either needs new hands or new ears.".....

I confess Bobbe...I've never played a push-pull.... Which do I need...new hands or new ears?...or both"?
www.genejones.com
[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 August 2002 at 03:42 PM.]

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 27 Aug 2002 2:09 pm

Uh, "which all-pull do WE think sounds closest to a push-pull"?
Goodnight Mrs. Calabash where ever you are.