half stop on second string lower issue

[Danny Dees]

i've got this new lick i'm trying to learn and it's necessary for me to press the knee lever that lowers my second string a halftone through the whole lick. problem is my halfstop is so soft that as i'm playing the lick i end up pressing the knee lever too far and it messes me up. my steel is a 1974? msa classic.

can anyone tell me an easy way to make that halfstop stiff so i dont over shoot it? or how to turn that pull into just a halftone pull instead of a whole and halftone?

the lick i'm learning is at 1.25 in this version of cadillac style. http://soundcloud.com/excalibur-steel/cadillac-style-th

any help anyone can give me on that halfstop thing will be really appreciated. thanks!

[Lane Gray]

Since it doesn't take any more bandwith than to tell you to look at my post in the other thread:
If it's an actual tune-under-the-guitar half-stop, you can stiffen the half-stop by loosening the set screw in the collar that the spring presses against (the other end of the spring from the tower) and moving the collar closer to the tower.

[Lane Gray]

I will post a picture of my halfstop. I am waiting for photobucket and then I will edit this post.
the collar I am speaking of on my guitar is right above the cross shaft for the RKR, between the cross shafts for P9 and P8 (or 2 and 3rd from left: it's a 10 pedal guitar)
If I had the facilities to add arrows I would point to it.

[Danny Dees]

thanks lane. i really appreciate the help.

[Lane Gray]

There should be a half-stop like the one in the picture: That's how Reece built 'em.
From Right to left, the parts in my picture are:
Tuning wheel: yours is probably aluminum, in the picture, mine's Delrin;
Tower;
Spring (a compression spring around the rod);
Spring retaining collar (that's what you move to increase stiffness);
Rod;
(Hiding under my RKR-this picture is a couple months old, I'm a couple hundred miles from my guitar, so I can't take a better one); the bellcrank on the RKL shaft and another collar that sits about 1/4" in from the bellcrank.

[Danny Dees]

thanks lane. i dont see a tuning wheel of any kind on mine. when i push the knee lever it looks like there's play in the ninth string pull rod. when i press that knee lever, the second string starts pulling and when the rod nits the spot where the ninth string starts to pull, that's where it seems to make the second string have a halftone. does this mean i dont have a halfstop and that its depending on the tension of the ninth string in order to get the halftone?

[Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)]

Danny, if I can jump in here for a moment, from your description it appears to me that you do not have an actual half-stop on your guitar. It's my guess that your guitar was originally set up as 1/2 tone lower on the 2nd string and 1/2 tone lower on the 9th. I'm venturing a guess that whoever had that guitar before you bought it wanted to lower the 2nd string a half and a whole, so they probably moved the 2nd string pull rod into a different hole in the pull lever so that the 9th string would not begin to activate until the 2nd string had dropped a half tone. If that's the case, I'm not surprised that the "stop" feels so soft because it really isn't a true stop at all. I'm not sure if that's what's actually going on with your guitar, but it's what I'm guessing.

Lane, would you agree with that assessment?

[Lane Gray]

Complete agreement here. I find it cool that using the "pick up the 9th string at D" works pretty well even without a set screw, but it's a soft stop.
The only way to increase the resistance of the "feel-stop" would be to add a second spring to the ninth string return spring, find a stiffer spring to replace it with (good luck, that one's pretty stout), or add a hardware half-stop.
Personally, I'd recommend adding a proper half-stop. Michael Yahl sells 'em, but both Jim Palenscar and Tom Bradshaw undersell Michael. I wish I could remember who used the Delrin wheel and who used aluminum.
They're around 45 bucks from Tom and Jim, and like 58 from Michael. (Sorry, Michael)

[Danny Dees]

thanks jim. we'll see what others say about it too. if it turns out i dont have a halfstop, what are my options to make it work?

[Danny Dees]

thanks lane. i'll look into getting one of those halfstop kits. in the meantime i reckon i'll try the stiffer spring trick and see how that works. thanks a million for the input! truly appreciate it.

[Mike Perlowin]

Danny, I realize this isn't going to help, but "I feel your pain." After wrestling with the same problem, I decided to get rid of the half stop and install an extra knee lever.

I tune my 2nd string to C#, and raise it to D and D# on 2 different levers.

[Lane Gray]

For that matter, Terry Bethel and some others tune to D and raise to D# on one knee and lower to C# on another (Terry lowers 6 to F# on the knee that lowers it)

[Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)]

Danny, I agree with Lane's recommendation that installing a true half-stop on your guitar is your best option ... especially if you're wanting a good positive half-stop for the express purpose of doing that lick you're talking about.

I know that your 2nd string lower is on your right knee, so you can try adding a stiffer spring if you like, but (as Lane pointed out) it still remains a soft stop. I highly recommend installing a true half-stop on your guitar.

My 2nd string lower is on my left knee and, when doing that lick, even with a good half-stop I could end up overshooting the half-stop occasionally as I pressed and released my B&C pedals repeatedly while playing that lick.

When I ordered my 1990 Mullen (the one you heard on that Cadillac song), I asked Del to give me the stiffest half-stop possible; and he did! That thing was so stiff it felt like an actual full stop when I hit the half tone and I had to really apply some extra heavy knee pressure to lower it all the way to a full tone. I wish the half-stop on my current Mullen was that positive.

Anyway, my personal recommendation would be for you to order a half-stop kit from one of the gentlemen that Lane pointed out and install it on your guitar.

[Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)]

Danny, I realize this isn't going to help, but "I feel your pain." After wrestling with the same problem, I decided to get rid of the half stop and install an extra knee lever.

I tune my 2nd string to C#, and raise it to D and D# on 2 different levers.

You know, I didn't think of that idea. Danny, do you still have those blank #1 and #10 pedals that aren't hooked up to anything on your guitar? Just an idea here, but if you've still got them, why not hook up pedal #1 to lower your second a whole tone and return your 2nd string lower on the knee lever back to its original function of simply being a half tone lower?

I used to use that sort of setup on my old MSA Classic XL.

[Danny Dees]

thanks for all the tips guys. yeah jim, i've still got em. they arent on the guitar anymore. when i got my steel it was a 10 and 5 but the guy didnt have the first and last pedals hooked up, they were just there. it was set up like a 8 and 5. i took the pedals off the pedal rack and put them and the pedal rods in a drawer somewhere.

i kinda like the idea of gettin rid of the halfstop idea and making those into two different pulls. i sorta like the idea of having that wholetone pull on a pedal. i dont use that 5 and 2 unison thing much but its a nice idea to have them on pedals side by side, just hit that one pedal along with the 'a' pedal and there it is.

all i gotta get is a pull rod and the hardhare to hook it up. to make my knee lever just pull a half which hole do i need to move the rod to?

[Danny Dees]

oops, meant hardware instead of hardhare. never was good at spelling and typing.

[John Peay]

Ok, not to hijack the thread here, but does anyone know if I can get a half-stop kit for my Derby SD-10?

Right now, I've got just the "feel stop" as described above, whereby I tune the 9th-string nylon nut to engage right at "D" on the 2nd-string. But a true half-stop would be much better here. I have tightened that 9th string return spring about as much as I can stand.

[Lane Gray]

Does the Derby use barrel pulls, or a similar arrangement, like this one? http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=230891
If so, then the Yahl/Palenscar/Bradshaw kit will work without modification, other than you'll need a Derby bellcrank and a puller (but leave the set screw out)

[Bill Moore]

The Derby has a screw behind each changer finger; it's easy to adjust the half stop. first, tune both the 2nd and 9th string lowers to C#. Use the nylon tuning nuts. Make sure the screws behind the changer for both strings are out far enough to drop all the way to C#. Then, adjust the tuning nut on 9th string to get the half stop on the 2nd. Now go back and adjust the screw behind the 9th string changer finger so that you can lower the 9th all the way to C#. You can adjust he return spring on the 9th string to give more resistance and a more positive stop if you want to. In my opinion, this system is the best and gives the best half stop. My Rittenberry guitars do it this way, it's as good a half stop as you can get. Also had it on Fessenden and Derby guitars, works great.

[Brint Hannay]

For that matter, Terry Bethel and some others tune to D and raise to D# on one knee and lower to C# on another

Terry got that idea from Jimmie Crawford, as recounted in the Winnie Winston Manual of Style book.

So did I. But I found the combination of the C# and F# lowers unworkable, because I like to use the C# lower in relation to A+B pedal stuff. The difference is that my guitars are all-pull; Crawford had those changes on the same lever on a push-pull, where raises predominate, so with B pedal down the F# lower has no effect. I still have both lowers, but not together.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Ok, not to hijack the thread here, but does anyone know if I can get a half-stop kit for my Derby SD-10?

You should be able to still get one from the Derby people. They work really good and are made to fit your guitar right out of the box.

Check with Bob Callaway if he's there or Margit Stepp can likely check on it for you.

Derby Steel Guitar Inc
465 N Myers Rd
Brooks, KY 40109
Phone: (502) 957-1059

BTW, I agree with having an actual mechanism for half-stops. Even then, sometimes the operation is less than perfect, but it's more positive than the 9th string deal in my experience.

The most accurate of course is having 2 separate devices in continuation, one for D and another for Db. If I didn't have to give up another important move on a KL, I would consider dedicating a lever just for that.

[Lane Gray]

The Derby has a screw behind each changer finger; it's easy to adjust the half stop. first, tune both the 2nd and 9th string lowers to C#. Use the nylon tuning nuts. Make sure the screws behind the changer for both strings are out far enough to drop all the way to C#. Then, adjust the tuning nut on 9th string to get the half stop on the 2nd. Now go back and adjust the screw behind the 9th string changer finger so that you can lower the 9th all the way to C#. You can adjust he return spring on the 9th string to give more resistance and a more positive stop if you want to. In my opinion, this system is the best and gives the best half stop. My Rittenberry guitars do it this way, it's as good a half stop as you can get. Also had it on Fessenden and Derby guitars, works great.

It works great on a Zum, too. But you can't easily add stiffness, and the "pick up the 9th string at D" doesn't have the same feel.
I think a dedicated half stop feels more solid.

[John Peay]

Thanks, Jerry, I'll check on it.

[Bill Moore]

You can adjust he return spring on the 9th string to give more resistance and a more positive stop if you want to.

[Craig Schwartz]

To backtrack a little hear folks , Before spending a nickle of this mans money .... would I be correct in saying this :
Work with the 9th rod, positioning it higher on the bellcrank...and to its highest level of tension on the changer to create a stronger starting point of the 9th pull, Just a thought not knowing where his rods are placed...