Do the mfr's really want to sell their guitars?

Dave Horner · Post by **Dave Horner** » 4 Sep 2002 5:11 pm

Bobbe,

Salary? Are you kidding? I just spent three days talking to some of the nicest people on the planet including some of the top stars of the pedal steel guitar. First time at the show. What a thrill. The Millennium is beautiful and sounds great. Now, given that, whatever would I do with a salary?

Dave

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Sep 2002 5:37 pm

Well Dave, I guess you could teach me how to spell it first off. (salary)
I need to hear one of these things,(new MSA) can you arrange this somehow? Let's see if you really are a miracal worker.
I don't go for people telling me "this or that" sounds good, I have my own ears that work great and they are a little critical about tone, I want to hear this guitar in a controlled setting and compare it against other steels with a few great players in attendance. If it passes this test and sounds pretty good, I want to try it in the studio then on a live job against other respected guitars. If it sounds good then, I feel the entire world should know the opinions of the professional steel player- testers. Will this affect sales of this guitar? It may not because everyone judges guitars by other criteria, " Gee,it's purdy" It's light! "Ole so-and-so plays one". It comes with a great case! And so on. But the guy that has to compete for his work, needs every advantage he can get, This is where the rubber meets the road.
This test will be for him or her.
Bobbe

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 4 Sep 2002 8:13 pm

[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 06 September 2002 at 06:20 AM.]

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 5 Sep 2002 3:12 am

Bobbe, I don't understand your point that because they are manufacturers, they do not have to present their product like a dealer would.
First of all, they may as well be dealers.....don't they all sell direct to the customers? (I know you don't like that, and I agree with you, they should either sell through a loyal dealer network or sell direct, but not both, but that's another issue).
Second, supplying a chair, a headphone amp and maybe a bar is not asking for too much. The fact that they don't leads me to believe they are either VERY poor marketers or poor businessmen.
Third, you say they are all sold out, or they sell all they can make. Well that must be because they don't make very many! And they don't make very many because they don't market them very well!
How come Carter not only shows plenty of steels, but can deliver one, ordered any way you want it, in 30 days?
I think the other mfrs could take a lesson from them in customer relations.

Chuck McGill · Post by **Chuck McGill** » 5 Sep 2002 4:12 am

First of all with the exception of Williams,
Zum,BJS bars,Mike Brown with Peavey and the
Beard resonator booth I found the people to
be not to concerned with their customer. I
disagree with you Bobbe about these people
not having to deal with customers because I
could be a potential dealer if they could see
this business spreading to larger audience.
Ever wonder why someone wouldn't consider
buying a 3000.00 dollar mechanic's nightmare
without having a local dealer to help with it. Gentlemen I felt very strange at 48 years
old to be one of the young guys in St.Louis
and without the young marketplace this industry,I use this term loosely, won't go
away but won't keep growing. We all seem to
be so interested in making people aware of
this wonderful instrument let's take the next
step and create a dealer network so all players can have access to these great guitars. People love the sound and they would
love to play.
[This message was edited by Chuck McGill on 05 September 2002 at 06:13 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 5 Sep 2002 4:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>with the exception of Williams,
Zum,BJS bars,Mike Brown with Peavey and the
Beard resonator booth I found the people to
be not to concerned with their customer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I had very positive experiences with everyone at every booth I stopped at.

As an example, the corner outside the main hall with the Gospel Steel Guitar Club, Fessenden Steel Guitars, and the Stereo Steel Amp booths was a beehive of activity all weekend. Despite being outside of the main hall, there were always people discussing guitars, amps and pickers. I know tha many sales were made at those booths too.

Chuck McGill · Post by **Chuck McGill** » 5 Sep 2002 5:11 am

I should clarify. I didn't have bad experiences @ any booth. Overall everyone
was very friendly. But some were very helpful
and eager to give you information about their
product. Being a music dealer these qualities
are first on my list. I'm not rating anyone,
just giving an opinion. Also I should mention
the gracious Mr. Jimmmy Crawford a JCH for bringing parts to the show for me and I also
enjoyed talking with Dell cases and Steeler's Choice also.

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 5 Sep 2002 5:28 am

First, accessability of trying guitars is better than it's ever been in St.Louis.
Not to appear playing a favorite, but, I believe the MSA folks had the right idea by having a private suite in which to play the Millennium without distractions.
Secondly Bobbe,
I appreciate the president of any company being available to answer questions and converse about their product, especially someone as experienced and knowledgeable as Reece Anderson. Of course if you had your wish, everyone would buy from you and bypass any other means of purchase.

BTW, your theory is backwards. The way of the future is to buy direct. For example, Gateway Computers, Dell Computers and a host of other products from CDs to birthday cakes.
Carter and MSA have excellent marketing plans, while still leaving room for dealers to carry and service used steels, new steels and accessories.

T.W.[This message was edited by Tommy White on 05 September 2002 at 06:49 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Sep 2002 7:51 am

I wasn't at the convention, but I think the idea is for the manufacturers to "showcase" their steels, and it sounds like they did that.

For instance, I've been to a lot of car shows. You go there, and then you just look at the manufacturer's vehicle and literature, and talk to the representatives. I've never had one hand me the keys and say..."Here, take it for a spin!" I think it's generally accepted that anyone who is seriously interested will inquire further, and find out how and where they can do a "test drive". Time, space, and availability of new product dictates that everyone who is interested probably won't be able to "try it out the same day".

I imagine that, in the steel world (just like in the car business), there are a few buyers...and a lot of "tire kickers and door slammers".

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 5 Sep 2002 8:05 am

Time, space, and availability of new product dictates that everyone who is interested probably won't be able to "try it out the same day".

But these are not cars. They CAN be set up and 'test driven' right at the show. It's the manufacturer's choice as to what they want to do and how they choose to market their product. But the 'try it out now' option is certainly available.

Additionally, a 'prequalification stipulation' makes no sense to to me (i.e., "serious" buyers only). You could say that many, if not most, of the folks who have the interest and actually take the time to go these shows are serious enough to be a potential customer. I know I kicked a couple of tires and walked away from the ISGC a couple of years ago with several grand less in the bank than I had intended to.

[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 05 September 2002 at 09:12 AM.]

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 5 Sep 2002 8:26 am

Donny, at a car show, looking at the different models (which is half the battle since they all look different) and sitting in them is 90% of the decision making process (for me, anyway).
Do you think steel guitars can be showcased by merely showing you how they look?
They practically all the look the same anyway!
How about if you went to a car show and all the cars were locked shut? That's how I felt!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 5 Sep 2002 8:31 am

I believe bobbe is right. For reasons that are too many to list here, manufacturers typically are not great at customer relations -- it's just not in their blood. Dealers play an important role, not just in being marketers, but it providing vital feedback to the manufacturers about what's good and what's bad. The opinion of a dealer who sells many steels carries more weight than the opinion of a lone customer.

I fear, though, that Tommy is right about direct sales becoming more common. I think this trend is unfortunate and is fueled by customers thinking that dealers are just sales guys who don't deserve to get a markup on their steels. It's also fueled by manufacturers who don't appreciate the customer service value that dealers provide.

We've heard a lot about customers being ripped off by more than one manufacturer in the past (although, one does stand out). Has anyone ever been ripped off by a legitimate dealer? Bobbe has stood behind every steel he has sold me, and I know that he would do anything he could to satisfy me as a customer. Will the manufacturers do the same?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 5 Sep 2002 8:54 am

Good input on the Demo rooms, Gang.

I voulenteer to work the Sierra Demo Booth and it brings me great pleasure to get folks hooked up with whatever setup they want to try (with respect to what we are able to bring).

One conventioneer brought in a Peterson Strobe Tuner and strobed out my Session Series S12U, checking for cabinet drop, changer deflection, 25" scale tone and feel, ect.
He was comparing it to his 24" Sierra Crown Series and seemed quite satisfied with his findings.
He had a long conversation with the company owner after that.

I met several steelers who wanted to swap out pickups and check for variety of available tone.
Folks found this feature to be really user friendly and just plain fun!

I know alot of folks played the Sierra Lap Steels that were on display, also.

I also did some fairly major surgery to correct a problem on a customers Sierra guitar that had somehow gotten way out of whack, and that guy left with a huge smile on his face.
(Glad I brought my allen wrenches!)

It seemed that folks who came to the show to try out steels had their own bars, picks, tuners/wrenches, and had no problem asking to try out steels.
But in the interest of "Contiuous Improvement" I feel we could provide bars and picks, and a few more sets of headphones, and tuners and tuning wrenches.

David Wright and I explained and demonstrated the Universal copedant theory and general Sierra features several times to several groups of folks that came in over the course of the weekend, and that was fun!

I agree that we were "performing" a fair amount of the time (playing along with rhythm tracks), but folks would yell out questions and/or requests between nearly every song, and we did our best to answer, explain, or play, whatever was asked of us.

Everyone who asked to try a steel through an amp, got to try a steel through either the Peavey 2000 with P300 ext cab, or Fender Deluxe tube amps with a Boss RV-3 Stereo Reverb/Delay, that were on the stage.

We also had 2 or 3 sets of headphones for the steels on the floor. (admittadly, we had standard chairs at these steels, not pac-a-seats.)

We also had some really nice full color brochures for folks (defining available models and options), and a significant amount of historical photos largely displayed on the walls of the room.

Please keep your input coming!
We are listening!

ps
Reading some of these posts I get the feeling we're supposed to get folks to try the steels in a manner similar to a shotgun wedding!

"Sit down rite thar son [muzzle in face] and let me strap ya in fer yer "test ride" he-he.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 5 Sep 2002 9:55 am

I didn't go to St. Louis this year but have been a few times in the last few years. I've found that the Sierra, Carter & Fluwaka rooms to be the best set up for trying out guitars. The others fall short on being able to play and hear their guitars for obvious reasons depending on where their booth is located. I know there are strict rules on keeping the volume level down at each booth. Of course this makes the rooms the ideal place to be if you want people to play your instruments.

This being the first time MSA has been there in recent years I feel sure there were probably no rooms available for them to set up in. I don't know this for a fact but every year I've been to St. Louis the same vendors are in the same rooms, so apparently they get first choice at their room for the following year.

The fact that MSA had their own suite to show their guitars tells me they were going out of their way to accomodate everyone under less than ideal circumstances. It sounds like a few people didn't get to see the MSA's that wanted to and I'm sure Reece and team regret that happening. I feel sure it was difficult to manage getting people to the suite as I'm sure they were overwhelmed with people wanting to hear the Millinium.

As far as dealing with builders vs. dealers, I just wish there were more qualified dealers to deal with. In my area there is only 1 dealer who knows anything about steel guitars and I feel fortunate to have him. I tried a few years ago to find a steel dealer in Houston and all I could locate was Herb Remington who sells his own guitars so I guess he's a builder. I have seen a couple of steels in Guitar Center but no one in there seemed to even know what they were.

I personally like dealing with the builder. They have all the info I've ever needed. I've directly delt with Jerry Fessenden and Reece Anderson and have had nothing but great service out of both of them. I would be happy to go through a dealer if I was close enough to one who could provide me with what I want but if I'm going to have to deal with someone hundreds of miles away I had rather go straight to the source.

I think we all are fortunate to be able to go directly to the owner/president of any of the Steel Guitar Companies if there is a problem. I don't know of any other product made where you can talk to the person at the top virtually any time you wish. There have been many times when I've had problems with other products that I wanted to talk to anyone above the person who knew nothing and found it almost impossible to do so.

I think we need to count our blessings that the Steel guitar industry is set up the way it is. No other industry I know of is as accessible as this one.

David Weaver · Post by **David Weaver** » 5 Sep 2002 10:14 am

Interesting topic and you don't have to be an expert guitar player to have an opinion.

My above posting may have been to strident regarding what happens at the convention.

Exhibits well done serve a specific purpose that vary depending on strategy.

Some example of exhibit objectives might be:

1. To put a new model of guitar into everyone's mind and vocabulary and tie it to a piece of history. MSA certainly achieved that objective.

2. Make our company look like the dominant player in the business. Carter took the right steps to do that.

3. Show that we have a long history in the business even though we have up-to-date products. Sierra did that with their room.

4. Dominate the educational market and look like it at the meeting....Jeffran College does that very well.

Other vendors may have accomplished their objectives. Seems to me that investing in an exhibit is somewhat like playing the guitar. If you are clear about what you want to do, when and how, you have a focus and a chance for success. If you just "show up and do something" it seems that it could easily be confused, disappointed or even defensive about what happened when it is all over.

There are a number of steps to complete a sales closing when a large ticket item is on the line. Closing sales may not be a realistic goal at a convention like this.

Manufacturers and distributors get the most for their exhibit investment when they define clear, obtainable objectives prior to a trade show, then develop their booth, their pitch, and even their dress and literature around that objective.

That said, closing a sale should not be too far off the page and the exhibitor should be prepared when the opportunity presents itself.

My personal experience at the convention is that at 8:00 PM on Saturday I called my wife to tell her I had no reason or desire to buy a guitar. I had all the guitar(s) I need for a year or two. At 11:00 PM on Saturday a friend I was talking to in the hall said he was selling one and I bought it on the spot.

A sale can sometimes come out of nowhere.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Sep 2002 10:15 am

Sidney, glad it's set up the way it is? Then why is everyone griping about the manufactures in St.Louis?
By the way, I as a dealer sold 13 guitars Labor day week end and still had time to fly to St.Louis and fly back. I wonder how many guitars the manufactures sold in St.Louis. I'm not sure everyone will agree with you. I know 13 that don't.
Bobbe

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Sep 2002 10:45 am

I know that Anne did backflips to get me behind a Carter (although she DID do a doubletake when she saw my nametag?). I'm 6'4" and she was there with the wrenches I needed and had me pull down the only S-10 they had on display.

Unfortunately, I can't really play without my little piece of 2x4 that I put under my left heel.

My calf cramps up something terrible. I don't know you guys do without a heel shim...

I imagine I could have tried guitars anywhere but then again, I'm not the shy type. It's just too much trouble to set up the ergonomics on 8 different guitars just to TRY 'em.

When I'm ready to BUY, then I'll take the time.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 5 Sep 2002 11:03 am

Bobbe, as I said in my post, I wish there were more qualified dealers to deal with. As with Fender or Gibson guitars or Peavey & Fender amps, virtually every music store sells them and has a pretty good knowledge of them. This is just not the case with Steel Guitars.

If just 25% of the music stores had only 1 person in them with 1/2 the knowledge of Steel Guitars that you had there would be no reason to go to the builder. We don't have that and I'm certain we never will. This is a good thing for you.

We will just have to disagree on going to the builder. I'm sure if I were in your position I would feel the same way you do but I'm a consumer and I'm looking for the most accurate information and best deal I can get and if I can go to a builder and get that, I will.

If the builders are losing sales because of not going through a dealer, that is their loss. I don't think that is the case but I'm not in a position to know.

One thing I think we will agree on is regardless of who agrees or disagrees with us, our opinions will not change.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Sep 2002 11:29 am

Good post Sidney, I agree with all you say. This thread is a good learning tool for me as it is for all of us.
Yes, I truly understand that the manufactures offer a way of learning more about their guitars, this also helps the dealers, it makes our jobs easier to sell their product. As I stated before though, I have sold 39 guitars in the last three weeks. All of these folks know about St.Louis and none chose to by direct from the builder. I feel I am doing the steel guitar community a service by offering double warrentys,parts,free telephone service advice and many free perks to our customers. Plus the total rebuilds, restorations,refinishing,and the ability to offer great used guitars to the steel community at great savings over the price of new guitars. What manufacturers do you know of that will totally restore an older Sho-Bud or original Emmons before selling it to the public. This isn't the business they are in. Should I just sell used guitars? Maybe so! I think all you guys have valid points , I'm watching all comments.
Your friend,
Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Sep 2002 11:38 am

Sidney, after rereading your post again, I realize that we aren't disagreeing on anything, as I stated previously, you are quite correct, there should be more , better qualified dealers. I don't know where the builders would find them if they did want them, which they might.
Music stores just flat out, aren't the place to buy steel guitars! Selling a steel guitar requiers special trained and qualified technitions, we even have a lot of trouble finding them to work for us. This thread is wonderful and I thank everyone for their participation. Lets hear some more feedback!!!!!!

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 5 Sep 2002 12:00 pm

Bobbe, I was approaching this subject with buying a "new" guitar in mind. If I were buying a "used" guitar I probably would not even think about going to a builder simply because I would be thinking they only sold new guitars and probably wouldn't have much of a selection of used guitars. I guess some of them might take trades, I'm not sure.

I would think it would be even more critical to go to a reputable dealer when buying used simply because of the greater possibility of problems. The trouble is, there is just not many of you out there. I guess this market is too small to support a Steel dealer in every average size city. Sometimes not even in large cities.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 5 Sep 2002 12:05 pm

What about Mega-mail-order stores like Musician's Friend? There's NO WAY that Fred's Piano and Guitar down on Sligh street, can compete. But, while the mail order folks can give us better prices, they can't personalize their services. Same thing here. As TW mentioned, this direct sale thing, like Dell and Gateway, is broadening. All the more reason for steel manufacturers to use, not only St. Louis, but ALL the steel conventions, as forums(excuse the pun)for their wares. Mind you, I said manufacturers, and not individuals, since guys like Del Mullen are sold out anyway. But why not Emmons, or some of the other "name" guitars? John Fabian was at Saluda earlier this year, and Carter guitars were the talk of the show.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Sep 2002 12:15 pm

Thank you Sidney and Stephen.
Good thinking.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Sep 2002 4:31 pm

Do you think steel guitars can be showcased by merely showing you how they look?

No, not altogether. But if I had the choice between "seeing, but not playing" and nothing at all, I'll take a look, thank you! I'd much rather look at one than just hear about it.

How about if you went to a car show and all the cars were locked shut? That's how I felt!

Well, guess what? The last couple of big car shows I went to...you couldn't even touch 'em, much less sit in 'em! They were behind velvet ropes, fancy railings, or low glass partitions. They did have some of them purty female models pointin'...smilin'... and touchin' 'em, though!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 September 2002 at 05:32 PM.]

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 5 Sep 2002 8:18 pm

No, they just spend thousands and thousands of $ on these damn things developing them just to display them. Get real, can't you find anything else to bitch about? We've lost Mike Cass, who's gonna be next before all this unnecessary $--- stops. We need to give these pro's there due, guys like Reece, Seymour etc. will have forgotten more about steel guitar than most of us will ever learn.

get a LIFE[This message was edited by Jeff Coffell on 05 September 2002 at 09:20 PM.]