As I understand it, all the early Ricks used the same horseshoe pickup (1 1/2" pre war, 1 1/4 later on) so why does everyone look down on the NS and Model 59s compared to the Silver Hawaiian - isn't the only difference that the Silver H. is chromed (plus maybe brass vs sheet metal)? Does the Silver H really play/sound better than the NS/59 ?
Same sort of question applies to the BD (Bakelite) guitar. I wouldn't have thought a Bakelite body would sound better than steel.
I have never played a Rick of any sort (yet)but I'm thinking of getting one so I'd welcome some feedback on this, as the NS/59 s are so much cheaper than the more acclaimed models. What is it about them that people don't like ?
rickenbachers
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
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Lew Collins
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 9 Apr 2000 12:01 am
- Location: Boulder, Colorado, USA
First off, I'm a real novice. But I do have some nice guitars and play them alot!
The Silver Hawaiian is BEAUTIFUL and, I believe, made from brass...the gray finished Ricks are stamped steel and the pickup is often non adjustable for height. I find that I need to tweak the height of the pickup on my Ricks often to get the best tone, so a non-adjustable pickup would be a real drag.
Big differance in quality and overall vibe between the brass and stamped steel guitars.
The 1 1/2" pickup is warmer and louder. The 1 1/4" pickup sounds fabulous until compared to an 1 1/2" pickup...then it sounds a little thin and bright. But only compared to a 1 1/2" pickup...actually, the 1 1/4" pickups sounds just fine.
Personally, I'd take my bakelite Rick with the 1 1/4" pickup over any Fender or other lapsteel except my '37 Rick.
My '37 Bakelite Rick is the best lap I've ever played. Now that it's set up right, I don't play anything else.
Sounds like a Hammond B-3 organ sometimes!
The Silver Hawaiian is BEAUTIFUL and, I believe, made from brass...the gray finished Ricks are stamped steel and the pickup is often non adjustable for height. I find that I need to tweak the height of the pickup on my Ricks often to get the best tone, so a non-adjustable pickup would be a real drag.
Big differance in quality and overall vibe between the brass and stamped steel guitars.
The 1 1/2" pickup is warmer and louder. The 1 1/4" pickup sounds fabulous until compared to an 1 1/2" pickup...then it sounds a little thin and bright. But only compared to a 1 1/2" pickup...actually, the 1 1/4" pickups sounds just fine.
Personally, I'd take my bakelite Rick with the 1 1/4" pickup over any Fender or other lapsteel except my '37 Rick.
My '37 Bakelite Rick is the best lap I've ever played. Now that it's set up right, I don't play anything else.
Sounds like a Hammond B-3 organ sometimes!
Mickd,
I can only speak for my self and somethings I have observed and heard.
Most Rickenbacher "buffs", want only the prewar Bakelite 6 or 7 string Ricks. The silver and metal Ricks do not have the sound of the bakelites that most of us really want.
Jerry Byrd played bakelite Ricks all thru his rise to fame. He did play the fry pan. But most of his recordings were done on the 6 or 7 string bakelite Rick.
These steels have a disntictive "moan" to them more or less. NOT all of them have it. But those that do have a sound not obtainable on any other type guitar in the world. And no human on earth brought out that "moan" like the master--Jerry Byrd.
If you listen to his early recordings behind such stars as Hank Williams and Ernest Tubb, you will clearly hear this "moan". Especially on sustained notes.
My point is, the Silver Hawaiian, postwar models and other metal bodied and multi-neck Ricks are not sought after like the prewar bakelite Ricks (the ones with the wider magnets).
After the war, Rickenbacher installed a metal tail piece on the end of the guitar where the strings were attached. This seriously changed the sound of the world famous Ricks. The owner of Rickenbacher maintained it didn't. Jerry Byrd said it did. I have to go along with Jerry on this one.
If you ever play one, (especially if you find one with that moan), you will know instantly what I am talking about. I searched for a 7 string for over 40 years like JB played on "Steel Guitar Favorites" and "HI FI Guitar". Finally found one. I would not part with it for anything.
God bless you,
carl
I can only speak for my self and somethings I have observed and heard.
Most Rickenbacher "buffs", want only the prewar Bakelite 6 or 7 string Ricks. The silver and metal Ricks do not have the sound of the bakelites that most of us really want.
Jerry Byrd played bakelite Ricks all thru his rise to fame. He did play the fry pan. But most of his recordings were done on the 6 or 7 string bakelite Rick.
These steels have a disntictive "moan" to them more or less. NOT all of them have it. But those that do have a sound not obtainable on any other type guitar in the world. And no human on earth brought out that "moan" like the master--Jerry Byrd.
If you listen to his early recordings behind such stars as Hank Williams and Ernest Tubb, you will clearly hear this "moan". Especially on sustained notes.
My point is, the Silver Hawaiian, postwar models and other metal bodied and multi-neck Ricks are not sought after like the prewar bakelite Ricks (the ones with the wider magnets).
After the war, Rickenbacher installed a metal tail piece on the end of the guitar where the strings were attached. This seriously changed the sound of the world famous Ricks. The owner of Rickenbacher maintained it didn't. Jerry Byrd said it did. I have to go along with Jerry on this one.
If you ever play one, (especially if you find one with that moan), you will know instantly what I am talking about. I searched for a 7 string for over 40 years like JB played on "Steel Guitar Favorites" and "HI FI Guitar". Finally found one. I would not part with it for anything.
God bless you,
carl
To sum it up: it's the 1.5" pickup, Bakelite body and strings-through-the body design (no tailpiece) that all add up to the better guitar.
Not having adjustment capability on the pickup would be very difficult to live with.
Has anyone sat down and compared a pre-war Bakelite Ric to the new Sierra lap? Inquiring minds want to know.
Not having adjustment capability on the pickup would be very difficult to live with.
Has anyone sat down and compared a pre-war Bakelite Ric to the new Sierra lap? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Brad Bechtel
- Moderator
- Posts: 8146
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
I've owned both a NS (stamped sheet metal body) and a B6 (Bakelite body) and there's really no comparison. The hollow body of the NS doesn't allow for the fuller sound you'll get out of the solid bodied B6. Even if the pickups were exactly the same, I think you'd hear a big difference between the two guitars.
Someone once suggested to me that filling the body of the NS with something besides newspaper would improve the sound. He suggested insulating foam in a can, the kind of stuff that expands when exposed to air.
I don't think so.
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Brad's Page of Steel:
www.well.com/~wellvis/steel.html
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars
Someone once suggested to me that filling the body of the NS with something besides newspaper would improve the sound. He suggested insulating foam in a can, the kind of stuff that expands when exposed to air.
I don't think so.
------------------
Brad's Page of Steel:
www.well.com/~wellvis/steel.html
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars
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Kenny Dail
- Posts: 2638
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.
FWIW, I have 1935 short scale Rick Frypan/Pancake 6 string and a 1938 Bakelite Rick 6 string (short scale) and both steels anchor the strings thru the body and they both have 1 1/2" pickups.
In the sound department, the Bakelite sounds better and has the "Jerry Byrd moan" Carl refers to. The Frypan sounds equally as good but the tone is different due to different material being used. The Bakelites are definitely harder to keep in tune because af the sensitivity of the bowling ball material.
Another reason for tuning problems, the neck is a bolt on an it also adds to the tuning sensitivity because of neck and body flex. In 1951 I was station at Ft Campbell, KY. and was always at the Opry every weekend and I recall watching Jerry play the Midnight Jamboree backing George Morgan and he was constantly "touching up" the tuning between the numbers. I don't know but, I have always believed that JB used 3 .017 gauge strings for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd string positions of his C6 tuning, the theory being, the tighter the string at tuned pitch, the less drop when moving the instrument around, even so much as removing it on or off your lap.
Another little known fact about the bakelite models is that in the early pre WWII models, the bakelite density was different than the postwar models. I am not sure if they changed the density before the war (1940 or perhaps earlier) or after the war. In any event, that is the reason that the tone is better in the early models. That and the changing of the pickup width and the anchor plate for the strings can make a drastic change in tone. These are just my own observations and conclusions.
One more comment, as MJ stated, bakelight is brittle. I loaned a musician friend a 7 string pre-war Rick bakelite and he dropped it on the concrete floor of WNCT tv studio in Greenville, N. C. in 1954 it broke the neck and guitar into small pieces. Unrepairable even with a new neck. I am sicker today than I was back then when he told me what had happened. I paid $50 for it back then and it was a used instrument bin in "like new" condition (inclkuding case).
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kd...and the beat goes on...
In the sound department, the Bakelite sounds better and has the "Jerry Byrd moan" Carl refers to. The Frypan sounds equally as good but the tone is different due to different material being used. The Bakelites are definitely harder to keep in tune because af the sensitivity of the bowling ball material.
Another reason for tuning problems, the neck is a bolt on an it also adds to the tuning sensitivity because of neck and body flex. In 1951 I was station at Ft Campbell, KY. and was always at the Opry every weekend and I recall watching Jerry play the Midnight Jamboree backing George Morgan and he was constantly "touching up" the tuning between the numbers. I don't know but, I have always believed that JB used 3 .017 gauge strings for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd string positions of his C6 tuning, the theory being, the tighter the string at tuned pitch, the less drop when moving the instrument around, even so much as removing it on or off your lap.
Another little known fact about the bakelite models is that in the early pre WWII models, the bakelite density was different than the postwar models. I am not sure if they changed the density before the war (1940 or perhaps earlier) or after the war. In any event, that is the reason that the tone is better in the early models. That and the changing of the pickup width and the anchor plate for the strings can make a drastic change in tone. These are just my own observations and conclusions.
One more comment, as MJ stated, bakelight is brittle. I loaned a musician friend a 7 string pre-war Rick bakelite and he dropped it on the concrete floor of WNCT tv studio in Greenville, N. C. in 1954 it broke the neck and guitar into small pieces. Unrepairable even with a new neck. I am sicker today than I was back then when he told me what had happened. I paid $50 for it back then and it was a used instrument bin in "like new" condition (inclkuding case).
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kd...and the beat goes on...
I'm awaiting parts for my B6 to be returned from the chrome shop. Once I get it up and running, I just may try putting sand in the old Silver Hawaiian. There is plenty of it around here in north central Florida, and what the heck, the process is reversible. But how about pH and moisture attenuation? Not pleasant thoughts.
The insulating foam idea is not reversible. Once that stuff is inside your hololow-body instrument, it's staying! Fiddlers have been known to make a feedback resistant istrument by filling a cheap, but comfortably playable instrument with insulating foam (introduced through the "f" holes) and attaching their favorite pickup. One nice feature is that that foam is practically weightless. A friend actually made one for me, but I didn't care for the sound--it could have been the fiddle itself. However, others have done it with some success.
A little advice to anyone who might try the foam idea. Check into how much the stuff expands and also make sure the oustide surface is greased-down with something so the foam won't stick. When my friend Mike did the fiddle he set it outside and returned after the required time to find the fiddle covered with a couple feet of hard foam! He had prepared the fiddle's exterior with something so the foam wouldn't stick, so it all popped right off.
Dr. Frankenstien
The insulating foam idea is not reversible. Once that stuff is inside your hololow-body instrument, it's staying! Fiddlers have been known to make a feedback resistant istrument by filling a cheap, but comfortably playable instrument with insulating foam (introduced through the "f" holes) and attaching their favorite pickup. One nice feature is that that foam is practically weightless. A friend actually made one for me, but I didn't care for the sound--it could have been the fiddle itself. However, others have done it with some success.
A little advice to anyone who might try the foam idea. Check into how much the stuff expands and also make sure the oustide surface is greased-down with something so the foam won't stick. When my friend Mike did the fiddle he set it outside and returned after the required time to find the fiddle covered with a couple feet of hard foam! He had prepared the fiddle's exterior with something so the foam wouldn't stick, so it all popped right off.
Dr. Frankenstien
Like Brad, Carl, et al nothing quite compares to the magical tone of a pre-war Bakelite Rickenbacher IMHO. It's not necessarily better than other guitars but it certainly has its own sonic niche - one that many players find very desireable. I recently acquired a near mint '37 Bakelite and can confirm that my perception matches Carl's description. The sound is full, rich, and warm with a characteristic "bite" and complex upper harmonics.
When talking about Jerry Byrd's Bakelite tone, however, we shouldn't forget that what we hear on record is a combination of his phenominal technique coupled with high quality tube amplification, analog, tube-based recording technology, perfect mike placement in acoustically "live" rooms, and mono mastering.
David Lindley's Bakelite sound is light years away from Byrd's but equally compelling and for me, underlines the versitility of these guitars.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 23 June 2000 at 04:50 PM.]</p></FONT>
When talking about Jerry Byrd's Bakelite tone, however, we shouldn't forget that what we hear on record is a combination of his phenominal technique coupled with high quality tube amplification, analog, tube-based recording technology, perfect mike placement in acoustically "live" rooms, and mono mastering.
David Lindley's Bakelite sound is light years away from Byrd's but equally compelling and for me, underlines the versitility of these guitars.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 23 June 2000 at 04:50 PM.]</p></FONT>
I believe David Lindley's setup of choice to be a Supro through his modified Fender wide panel deluxe with a Jennings speaker (Order of the Python, hense it's covering). He may also use a Rick, but has used the Supros every time I have seen him (God only knows why). I think he is an affectionado of cheap instruments, not meaning to knock supro too bad, but compared to a bakalite rickenbaker, well.
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Lew Collins
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 9 Apr 2000 12:01 am
- Location: Boulder, Colorado, USA
The foam thing has been done with the Ampeg Baby Bass. Sometimes those old basses would "explode" on stage when the foam would expand under hot lights and blow the seams of the bass open!
Anyway, I'd never alter a 50 or 60 year old guitar like that...I'd just keep it stock and let it be what it is and keep my eyes open for the "right" one.
Regarding David Lindley, I think that's a Pre WWII Rick on all the old Jackson Browne recordings. His tone on those old records, especially the Running on Empty album, is what made me want to learn to play lap steel. I don't like his tone with the Supros nearly as much, altho the Supros do have more growl and I do enjoy plugging in my Supro for a change.
When you say he uses a Jennings Speaker, are you referring to the old 12" speaker Vox used in the 60's and which some people call the Bulldog?
Anyway, I'd never alter a 50 or 60 year old guitar like that...I'd just keep it stock and let it be what it is and keep my eyes open for the "right" one.
Regarding David Lindley, I think that's a Pre WWII Rick on all the old Jackson Browne recordings. His tone on those old records, especially the Running on Empty album, is what made me want to learn to play lap steel. I don't like his tone with the Supros nearly as much, altho the Supros do have more growl and I do enjoy plugging in my Supro for a change.
When you say he uses a Jennings Speaker, are you referring to the old 12" speaker Vox used in the 60's and which some people call the Bulldog?
A small tangential question: I tested out a hollow-body all-metal Rickenbacher (pre war). While the sound was good on the first few strings, the 4th, 5th, and 6th string had almost negligible sustain. If I put the bar at the 12th fret of the 4th string, the sound suddenly dies out. Is this, by any chance, a well-known small problem that is fixed easily or is this something more serious?
-Surinder
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Surinder Singh on 28 June 2000 at 09:57 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Surinder Singh on 28 June 2000 at 03:25 PM.]</p></FONT>
-Surinder
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Surinder Singh on 28 June 2000 at 09:57 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Surinder Singh on 28 June 2000 at 03:25 PM.]</p></FONT>
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wayne yakes md
- Posts: 654
- Joined: 23 Nov 1999 1:01 am
- Location: denver, colorado
Chuck Lettes will play Dick McIntire's 1935 Rickenbacker 6 string fry pan at Scotty's 2000. After you hear "Mr. Blue" do "Sleepwalk" on it, you decide what the best sounding "Little Ricky" is. Also check out his New CD when he releases it in St. Louis playing "Little Ricky"(as he lovingly calls it!).
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Terry Wood
- Posts: 5240
- Joined: 2 Mar 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Marshfield, MO
Hi MickD,
I have one Silver Ricky a 1937 and I love it. This past year or so I have been using it in the recording studios, and I really think it is a cool sounding guitar. When I first purchased it, I was offered a lot of money for it, even then during the early 1980's. I could easily get 4 times what I gave for it, but I love the little Silver Darlin'!
If it could talk, it could surely tell some stories. My little Silver Ricky doesn't get offended by those who don't understand it.
It realizes that we all like variety, and that color/variety makes us appreciate
the changes of life. Haven't a clue as to what some of these players are talking about and wonder if they do too sometimes.
Go with the Ricky that's right for you. Your the one that has to give it a home. Good luck and God bless you!
Terry J. Wood
1937 Silver Ricky + My Baby!
14 strings + 14 Pedal BMI = Fun!
12 strings + 11 Pedal Dekely = Delight!
I have one Silver Ricky a 1937 and I love it. This past year or so I have been using it in the recording studios, and I really think it is a cool sounding guitar. When I first purchased it, I was offered a lot of money for it, even then during the early 1980's. I could easily get 4 times what I gave for it, but I love the little Silver Darlin'!
If it could talk, it could surely tell some stories. My little Silver Ricky doesn't get offended by those who don't understand it.
It realizes that we all like variety, and that color/variety makes us appreciate
the changes of life. Haven't a clue as to what some of these players are talking about and wonder if they do too sometimes.
Go with the Ricky that's right for you. Your the one that has to give it a home. Good luck and God bless you!
Terry J. Wood
1937 Silver Ricky + My Baby!
14 strings + 14 Pedal BMI = Fun!
12 strings + 11 Pedal Dekely = Delight!
Terry
you're a lucky man !
Theres been a few Silver H's on ebay recently but they looked pretty badly tarnished and rechroming those things can't be easy.
Frying Pans hardly ever crop up though, which is strange seeing how they were manufactured right through to the 50's, I believe. Maybe people hold onto them ?
Mick
you're a lucky man !
Theres been a few Silver H's on ebay recently but they looked pretty badly tarnished and rechroming those things can't be easy.
Frying Pans hardly ever crop up though, which is strange seeing how they were manufactured right through to the 50's, I believe. Maybe people hold onto them ?
Mick
I'll tell you, I have been enjoying my new Silver Hawaiian tremendously!. I had never before had or played a lap steel and reso-guitar is the closest I've come to 6-string lap playing. The S-H has some unique resonances and less sustain than I expected--I wouldn't call it a screamer by any means--it has its own voice.
But I've got a dilemma that I hadn't seen coming--this guitar is in nearly mint condition and it cost top $$ because of this. I have never considered owning an instrument for any reason than to play it but you know--if I keep enjoying it as much as I am, it won't be in near mint condition for long. I'm not sure what to do. I'm considering getting a cheaper guitar for daily playing and putting this Silver beauty in its case for use only on special occasions.
But I've got a dilemma that I hadn't seen coming--this guitar is in nearly mint condition and it cost top $$ because of this. I have never considered owning an instrument for any reason than to play it but you know--if I keep enjoying it as much as I am, it won't be in near mint condition for long. I'm not sure what to do. I'm considering getting a cheaper guitar for daily playing and putting this Silver beauty in its case for use only on special occasions.
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Terry Wood
- Posts: 5240
- Joined: 2 Mar 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Marshfield, MO
Hey Jon,
Play that Silver Puppy! Why let it lay around in a closet or under your bed? THe next person that gets it, whenever that might be, will do whatever with it.
To me that's like having a Monet or Van Gogh painting and hiding it, instead of hanging it for the world to see. Do you think these guys painted a masterpiece to put it in the closet. Do you think the Ricky was made to stash away in your closet or under the foot of your bed. I say it was made to play!
Jon you can't take it with you when you go. Play that Silver Puppy and enjoy it! If you think you want to sell it, then sell it. Don't know what you'd have to have for it? Price it so high that you'd rather have the money than the Monet, whoops the Ricky! that's what my college painting instructor used to tell me.
Sell the Monet, the Ricky or Play as it was meant to be! But be happy with your decision you have to make the choice.
God Bless You!
T.J. Wood
Play that Silver Puppy! Why let it lay around in a closet or under your bed? THe next person that gets it, whenever that might be, will do whatever with it.
To me that's like having a Monet or Van Gogh painting and hiding it, instead of hanging it for the world to see. Do you think these guys painted a masterpiece to put it in the closet. Do you think the Ricky was made to stash away in your closet or under the foot of your bed. I say it was made to play!
Jon you can't take it with you when you go. Play that Silver Puppy and enjoy it! If you think you want to sell it, then sell it. Don't know what you'd have to have for it? Price it so high that you'd rather have the money than the Monet, whoops the Ricky! that's what my college painting instructor used to tell me.
Sell the Monet, the Ricky or Play as it was meant to be! But be happy with your decision you have to make the choice.
God Bless You!
T.J. Wood