C6th: The Cop-out Neck

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Sep 2002 8:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I meant Es flatted not sharped! Sorry.
AB pedals down by releasing B

Don't get it. Which strings? Which pulls?

Either major triad?!? What’s hard to understand about that?
Fret 3: A pedal only= Cmaj7<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's no tonic in any of these applications. Your basic C Major7 from bottom up is C,E,G,B. Can you play this anywhere on E9 with a workable grip? You can do it in two places on C6. And I know you can leave out the tonic if the bass player plays a C note, but that isn't the point. The point is to see what you can do, before you start leaving stuff off.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Sep 2002 8:51 am

There are jazz chords all over the E9th neck, but they are laid out a lot more logically on the C6th neck.

Also, if you use just intonation (or meantone) on the E9th, some of the jazz chord positions won't be in tune. Having a second neck that specializes makes a lot of sense if you play songs with jazz chords very often.

I'm moving this post to the 'Pedal Steel' section.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 4 Sep 2002 9:54 am

I've read some intelligent comments on this thread, but they seem to be from the perspectives of D-10 vs. S-10 players, for the most part. I have to agree with b0b, and
lean toward his expertise, because I'm equally at home with a D-10,S-10,D-12,S-12, or a S12U. You see, once you really explore a variety of tunings & pedal setups, you discover that they all have their share of weaknesses and strong points. These run the gamut from the fine points of tuning, to the different guages of strings that they require. Example: the low B on a S-12U E9/B6
universal really gets in my way, whereas the low C on a C6 tuning seems to blend in just fine. Logically, it shouldn't matter, but...

Some of you are obviously content with a minimal setup, whereas others ( like me )are constantly seeking for that magic that comes from discovering something new. I take it wherever I find it. Whether it be on a 8-string E-13 w/no pedals or on a D-12 with Tom Morrels' mega-tunings. Let us all remember that it's all about self-expression
and conveyance of the same to others, through an almost intangible medium. Oh, I hate it when I get carried away like this!
W.C.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 4 Sep 2002 10:40 am

W.C.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Sep 2002 11:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>remember that it's all about self-expression
and conveyance of the same to others<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO, that's only partially correct. It's a combination of self-expression AND adherence to some sort of standard that defines the boundaries of what you are doing. For a simplistic example, no matter how much self-expression you want, you probably don't want to play an Eb chord over the Em chord in "Rocky Top". While you may actually like it, virtually no one else will. So therefore it's clear that there are still physical boundaries that prevent a total freedom of self-expression. So the question is, what should define those boundaries? Clearly you don't want to play Eb over Em. But do you want to play E9 over the changes to "Body and Soul". Of course, you can find pleasant enough changes to play. But to a sophiticated jazz admirer, will it work? Do you have enough dominant 7 flexibility with alterations and extensions? Can you find dissonances when you need them? See what I mean. I think you need to understand the boundaries. Of course, you can make the argument that the icons never needed to know boundaries, they made the boundaries. But unless you think you're an icon in progress, I believe in knowing what can, can't, should, or shouldn't be done. Now how's THAT for starting a debate!!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Sep 2002 11:38 am

Now that this appears to be moving toward civility I'll come out of my fallout shelter.

Jeff,
I don't really know what 'playing E9' means. If you mean cliches that are easy to play by virtue of how the strings and pedals lay, that's an artificial limit. I think in terms of playing music rather than playing a tuning. Some music is more easily played on a particular tuning -- I mean if you want to play a major scale, what's easier than a diatonic tuning? Since I only play one tuning, it's a moot point for me, but I really do identify with the C6 sounds and find that those scale tones and changes work well for a lot of stuff I hear in my head. Same is true for E9. I just like having it all there at one time -- preferably on the same neck. It's what works for me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 04 September 2002 at 12:40 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Sep 2002 11:52 am

Yeah Larry, sorry about some of the insanity, but I can't guarantee it won't happen again, so keep the beans and cot warm in your fallout shelter. I'm still waiting to find out from Marty which simply-gripped, fully voiced Major 7 chords are available in E9 before trying to tackle anything else. If there aren't any, I'm willing to put that part of this thread to bed. I was giving up earlier, but then I felt it would be considered a surrender, and I didn't want to do that, so I'm waiting for those Major 7ths. If Marty finds 'em, I then go for the 5 qualities of 7th chord (I can play a fully voiced 7b5 in 4 places off the top of my head, with easy grips/sweeps). Then it's the dominant 7th altered stuff, combining all sorts of b9,#9,#11,b13 in different combos. I can play a full "alt" chord on C6, combining all 4 altered notes. This chord appears quite often in fake books, and I'd like to see how it gets done in E9. But first, the basic Major 7.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Sep 2002 12:32 pm

When a song calls for Maj7 chords, I usually start by anchoring my thumb on the 9th string instead of the 8th. With pedals down, that's a DMaj7 at the nut.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Sep 2002 1:48 pm

b0b,
I know you can do that. But if you sweep it, you get the 9th note (E), which makes for a densely, voiced sound which I might selectively use, but not make it a staple. In order to play just the 4 notes (D,F#,A,C#), you need an unusual grip requiring 4 fingers, or a sweeping motion with your top 2 fingers that avoids the E note. Either way, IMO, it is way too involved for playing something so basic (basic for jazz, that is). On C6, you can play D Maj7 at fret 2 (pedal 7, strings 7,6,5,4)and fret 9 (no pedals, strings 9,8,7,6) with simple sweeps of the 4 consecutive notes. Just to restate the point of this, I'm not trying to deny that you can play jazz on E9. I'm refuting the idea that you don't need C6, which was the topic (as silly as it is). I'm still interested in seeing what Marty has to say about it.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 September 2002 at 02:49 PM.]

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 4 Sep 2002 2:31 pm

Get a Uni and have both arguements on one neck

Dennis

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 4 Sep 2002 2:35 pm

Jeff,

What type of ensembles have you been playing with and where have you been playing where there is a need for all those fully voiced chords coming from the steel ?

Marty,
The Norah Jones thing is no big deal. She was real busy in the downtown jazzish scene for a couple years before she hit. First time I heard her she was singing a little harmony at a bar I was playing at. What a sound she has coming out of her ! She could sing the phone book and make you cry.
Her piano playing is frightening. She will be comping along and then for yucks she will play one chorus like Erol Garner and the next one like Bill Evans.

Bob

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Sep 2002 2:41 pm

What type of ensembles have you been playing with and where have you been playing where there is a need for all those fully voiced chords coming from the steel

Bob, This is a theoretical discussion about what can and can't be done. Do you listen to the chord stuff that jazz pianists play? To me, C6 is like "piano-lite". It's probably the only instrument that can voice the kinds of things the pianists seem to do. And for that matter, why should playing a fully-voiced (i.e. 4 note) Major 7 be such a big deal. You can easily play it on electric guitar, on C6, on piano. But not E9. And even if you don't want to play fully-voiced chords, the chords define the scales you will use, and when improvising, you will want those scale notes available at sensible locations (i.e. where the chord is). And furthermore, the point is to see the inefficiecies/inadequacies of playing E9 jazz versus C6. You can always take away, but you can't put in something that isn't there.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 September 2002 at 03:59 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 4 Sep 2002 2:51 pm

Is there an E9th equivalent of this chart that is posted in the Tablature section? http://dogriverpub.com/trap/chords.pdf

It might come in handy here.[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 04 September 2002 at 04:03 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Sep 2002 3:19 pm

In order to play just the 4 notes (D,F#,A,C#), you need an unusual grip requiring 4 fingers...

What's unusual to you is second nature to me, Jeff. I've been using that grip, and a lot of other 4-note grips, for decades. I suggest that it's only unusual to you because you never bothered to learn it.

The same grip gives you the C#m7 when you lower the 9th string, and the Ddim7 when you raise the 8th. To me, it's one of the most-used grips on the E9th.

You're right about sweeps, though. I rarely use them for that reason.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Sep 2002 3:20 pm

.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 September 2002 at 04:23 PM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 5 Sep 2002 6:21 am

I'm with you on the sweeps, b0b. I also rarely use them, mostly because they aren't there on my modified C6th, because it has a D in the middle. If I felt a huge desire to play 4 note voicings, I would make a more serious attempt to use 4 picks. I do love western swing playing, but for the jazz gigs I do playing the typical C6th voicings (the big sweeps with the voicings that easily lie on the instrument) simply wouldn't fit. When I started working with a few heavy players here I would try to impress with my hot steel guitar 'jazz' licks, and they seemed to like it when I got on the E9th, or just played something simpler on the C6th.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 5 Sep 2002 9:43 am

Jeff,
I understand the theory of what you are are saying. I am way into the theoretical aspects of music. My question about where you use these voicings is to establish a practical application for your theories.
If you put yourself in the line of fire at the bars and clubs I think you will find that Dan's experience is more like what is really going on.
In my opinion there is a place for theory without application and it is very valuable to know that stuff. But I feel that it needs to be clarified that it might not apply to an actual playing situation.

As an aside, the most happening REAL jazz slide player in town is named Dave Tronzo. He can play bop with anybody and just plays a plain old bottleneck slide guitar. The guy is a monster !

Bob

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Sep 2002 11:07 am

Right. And Jerry Douglas can jam with the best of them on a 6-string dobro! Jazz musicians aren't all that concerned about what tuning you use. If you can understand the music and play parts that work, it really doesn't matter what instrument you use.

But with that said, it's a lot easier to play jazz parts on a tuning like the C6th. The chord positions and pockets are easier to find than on E9th.

I totally disagree with Marty's bait, though.

The C neck is kinda like the vibes; you just can't make an ugly sound on it. On the other hand all the sounds sound pretty much alike on it.

Marty, you obviously haven't heard me stumble around on C6th, OR on vibes. I hit a lot of clunkers.

On my D-10, I have the same pickups back and front. The main difference in the sound is that I play the front neck well and the back neck poorly. If I make an "ugly" sound, it's almost guaranteed that I'm on the back neck.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Sep 2002 11:08 am

Well we posted at the same time.
You said: "lot easier"
So's the kazoo, should we all take that up instead?
As I said in premise: I goofed on a C neck at the convention but to find out more about my position, read on...

I'm still waiting to find out from Marty...

Sorry Jeff, had to go to town for my elecroshock therapy...

It looks as though Dan and Bob have covered the points I would've made. But, to reiterate, I don't usually feel the need for the root; and interval distance on E9 is a pro, not a con for me; and, after listening to John Hughey's new CD, my conviction is reinforced that C6 is just too, ummm, bland a generic sounding.

To paraphrase Dan (I usually get in trouble for this): the E9 has a more distinct tonal character that people notice.
I think it's something to do w/the intervals and the interplay of pedals/levers.

I don't have incredible jazz scale/arpeggio/chording skills but am, nonetheless, never 'left behind'. I know the neck of my guitar THAT well. There are 47 more ways of knowing the various positions on the E9 and I hope to incorporate them too in time.

I got an MP3 of Lloyd's Sweet Memories from a live show he recently did and my opinion is reinforced. The most intricate point/counterpoint phrasing; the distinct tone not only of his guitar but, more importantly, the combination of intervals he used and the motion WITHIN the phrase/triad (or usually diad?

) is what MAKES the pedal steel what it is.

So, the C6 is kinda like having a 5 (or more) neck non-pedal steel. Throw a pedal? New tuning! Throw a lever or different pedal? ANOTHER new tuning. And they all sound that way too. gimme a break with the tone deaf comments; I've got a good ear and KNOW what I hear...

The E9 is, therefore, the only (IMO) real PEDAL steel guitar. At least in relation to the way it's played regarding technique, tuning intervals, and tone motion.

And again, I find everything I need to construct the right chord voicing for the situation.
Sometimes I have to hunt but that's MY limitation not the guitar's.[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 05 September 2002 at 12:12 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Sep 2002 11:19 am

The biggest real limitation of the E9th is its range. The 10th string B just isn't low enough for a lot of the things I do.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Sep 2002 12:22 pm

I gotta do some serious posting here, so I'll start by responding to Marty. Basically, you couldn't counter my point about limitations of the voicing of a very basic Major 7 chord. Since you couldn't, you basically said you don't have to. If your answer to having very limited ability to play a simple, basic, and very fundamental Major 7 is "leave out the root", then we have nothing further to debate. After two days of trying to nail this jello to the wall, I'm going to go no further on the initial topic of exploring the obvious advantages of using C6 to play jazz. I'll continue later this evening with some other responses. Regards. .. Jeff

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 5 Sep 2002 12:40 pm

OK, here goes....

I'm not a gambler, but if the government outlawed double neck guitars, the "greats" would opt for C6...or some other 6th tuning..not E9.

You newer ones who never played a non-pedal steel, would opt for E9.

Right? And don't attack me personally.

Paul Franklin said on one of his early tapes which I have: C6 in more "melodic" than E9, and to me it makes much better musical sense.

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 5 Sep 2002 2:29 pm

Guess I'll stir the pot just a bit more.
Buddy Emmons said "There is a lot of C6th
in the E9th tuning." Buddy is right, but
I still love both tunings,and E13, and Bb6,
and D6th, and D diatonic 7th ...
W.C.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Sep 2002 3:19 pm

My question about where you use these voicings is to establish a practical application for your theories

Bob, First of all, I didn't think I was discussing anything in the way of theory here. The theme of all my posts was to dispel Marty's notion that you don't need C6. Toward that end, I used a Major7 chord (the must fundamental building block of jazz, IMO) as a way of starting a debate comparing the two necks. I hardly consider a basic Major 7 chord as a heavy piece of theory. On the other hand, I'm more than willing to discuss it's use in jazz settings if you like. And yes, I ALWAYS use them in my playing. As would most any jazz pianist.

there is a place for theory without application and it is very valuable to know that stuff. But I feel that it needs to be clarified that it might not apply to an actual playing situation.

While all theories don't necessarily apply to all situations, there is no theory that doesn't apply to at least some playing siutation.
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 September 2002 at 04:20 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Sep 2002 3:39 pm

A thought about what theory is. My belief is that people played music, and theory evolved, not the other way around. People played things, and they created certain musical dynamics, certain qualities, flavors, colors, what have you. In order to be able to organize, categorize, and communicate the concepts of those sounds, they created theories, which are nothing more than identifying musical dynamcs, qualities, colors, etc. so that other players understand. So when someone says "play a D Dorian", it's a lot easier than "play the C major scale that sounds real good over a Dm7 chord". That's what theory is - communicating these musical concepts in common language and thinking patterns that everyone (who knows theory) will get. Therefore if you don't know theory, you shortchange yourself, because you don't know certain types of colors and dynamics, and so on that other people know and use. It's as if you didn't know to include an F note on a G7, and all you could play was G, while everyone else played G7. You'd be shortchanged. Well most everyone knows how to play a G7, even if they don't know it as a dominant 7. But if you want to communicate the concept of a dominant 7 to someone, it sure would be helpful to be able to say "dominant 7", because then you have described a musical quality that everyone will understand. That's what theory gives us. I have no doubt that a lot can be played without knowing theory, but there is infinitely more and more interesting stuff than can be played if you know it. Ok, I guess I'll get off the soapbox.