Tuning: playing with a band

John Turbeville · Post by **John Turbeville** » 22 Jul 2012 4:58 pm

Hey everyone, I tune my E9 straight up with a chromatic tuner, except I push my A and B pedals down for my E's. Sounds great by myself, but a little off when I'm playing with bands. Its not a left hand problem. Suggestions?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 Jul 2012 7:23 pm

When you say "straight up," do you use a mode like "E9th pedal steel"?
If so, that's the problem.

John Turbeville · Post by **John Turbeville** » 22 Jul 2012 7:38 pm

no, i mean I tune each string on the chromatic tuner to what is should be based upon the emmons E9th tuning, except the E string which I tune with the A and B pedal down to account for the cabinet drop. I'm on a GFI S-10 keyless at the moment.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 22 Jul 2012 8:05 pm

The question is, are you using a simple inexpensive chromatic tuner, or one that has an "E9 pedal steel" setting? A lot of steel players these days are using tuners that have programmed modes designated for pedal steel. These "pedal steel" modes assume you want to tune NOT to the same standard as other instruments, so what appears as "straight up" in such a preset isn't the "straight up" that others tune to.

It isn't clear from what you've said so far if you know this; hence the question from Lane. If you aren't familiar with the above, welcome to the wild and wooly world of steel guitar tuning.

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 22 Jul 2012 8:33 pm

i dont understand....either it goes to the note or it doesnt....lane?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 22 Jul 2012 8:41 pm

Playing in tune is always a left hand problem. It's a manageable problem when the steel is relatively in tune to itself, and relatively in tune to it's surroundings. But a steeler with a good left hand can overcome a lot of tuning issues.

One should never let up on any aspect of tuning. Get the steel in tune to itself, and in tune to the band, and then play it in tune.

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 22 Jul 2012 9:04 pm

i think i understand.i try to keep the E's true, so the whole thing doesnt get away from the other instruments, kinda like on my banjo,,i tune the 3rd string (G) and the first string (D) true, and then play with the 2nd string. it gets pulled, stretched, and i tweak the dickens out of it. so i guess on a steel there's notes that have to stay true,and ones you tweak. i bet ya'll think i fell off a turnip truck.lol

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 23 Jul 2012 6:08 am

The tuner should be able to tell you the Hz each string is delivering. For example, my E's are tuned to 442Hz. A simple 440 tuner will not give you a good tuning.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 23 Jul 2012 6:51 am

I wouldn't automatically rule out that someone else is actually out of tune. The loudest instrument will dominate the sound, if it's out of tune, you will sound out of tune even if you are not. Lots of guitarists and bassists are pretty casual about tuning; do it once at the start and forget it. If things sound out of tune to me, I first check my tuning, if it looks good, I know it's not my fault. Just ask the others to check their tuning, do it enough times and they will start to pay more attention to it. I do think that tuning straight up is not the best way, though, I mostly use the Newman tuning chart and if the other players are in tune, I have no problem sounding in tune with them.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 23 Jul 2012 8:56 am

When I first got a tuner (A Korg WT-10)I tuned everything to "zero". People kept telling me I was out of tune. Jeff Newman came out with this tuning chart and I started using that and from that point on no one ever told me I was "out of tune".

I still use the Newman chart (referenced to 440) with one modification on the E9th so the guitar is in tune with itself. The 3rd and 6th G# raises to A are tuned to -2 cents (.5hz), where the Newman chart says -6 cents (-1.5Hz).

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 23 Jul 2012 9:17 am

"I first check my tuning, if it looks good, I know it's not my fault. Just ask the others to check their tuning, do it enough times and they will start to pay more attention to it. "

One other small point. One night I really felt the band was out of tune. I usually make sure I'm in tune with the keyboard, btw. Bass player, lead player, rhythm player, and I all had our own tuners. During a break, I compared the tuners. Damn things weren't in tune with each other! I made everyone use my tuner. No mo problems!

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 23 Jul 2012 9:56 am

Perhaps I've misunderstood what's being conveyed herein but........

Regardless of how YOUR GUITAR matches the thingies indicated in your expensive tuner unit........

if the rest of the band is tuned 1/4 or more of a tone lower/higher than you, you're going to be messed up.

And the problem only gest worse as you chase all over your guitar to try and find the 'in tune' positions....fret-wise. Nothing more difficult than attempting to play between the frets.......

I've seen guys of late that arrive at the band stand in different vehicles, with different instruments, climb up on stage, give a quick strum of their own strings and away goes the band. Sometimes with at least 4 or 5 DIFFERENT levels of pitch.

Regardless of what tuner one might use, if you're not in tune with the others in the band (give me an "E"!)........somebody is going to sound terrible as the group attempts to play.

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 23 Jul 2012 6:59 pm

how do you fix a dobro player who tunes great open,but plays two or three mm off when he puts the bar down?

Bryant Aycock · Post by **Bryant Aycock** » 23 Jul 2012 7:27 pm

Don't automatically assume it's the steel, especially if there are other fretless instruments. A fiddle or a dobro will contrast. Also, if you play against a Tele, you've got your hands full. MHO.
Bryant

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 24 Jul 2012 1:14 am

Why is it that you never hear anyone say the lead guitar players 3rds sound sharp?
Why is it that a PSG player tunes his 3rds flatter than a pancake and wonders why something in the band sounds out with the rest of the band?
The rest of the band is tuned straight up. Seems logical to me that the PSG should be as well? It solved the problem for me and I would never go back to those so called sweetened tunings.
Makes me cringe evey time I hear a player tuned Newman hit that Major chord made with the A pedal with the lever that raises the E's 1/2 step.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 24 Jul 2012 8:25 am

I've wandered why the steel in a band is the only instrument that has to tune 3rds flat, G#'s flat and pull up to a 440 A. Just never understood why so I thought I'd try the 440 tuning straight across here a while back. When I did, some stuff sounded in tune but some chords and moves sounded way out. Thought it may be my ears so got a second opinion from a good keyboard player. He said it sounded out too. No where could I move the bar to sound in on some chords. The mystery remains as to why. I now tune with an Iphone app when I can and also tune out the beats when it's quite with my E's set to 440. This cabinet drop like 2 or 3 cents just doesn't bother me at all but if gets much more than that, it drives me nuts so then I try to compensate with tuning.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 24 Jul 2012 10:26 am

My reccomendation is to record every gig and rehearsal, and continually touch up your tuning until everything sounds in-tune with the band.
Then write down those settings and use them to quickly/silently tune-up at gigs.
At rehearsals you can also make recordings of the band playing without the steel playing. Use these to fine tune your Steel while practicing at home.
It would also help to ensure that the Bass and Guitar players intonation are set correctly. If not, when they play a chord or note in different positions, some positions will be in tune and some will be out of tune.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Jul 2012 10:49 am

"the Bass and Guitar players intonation are set correctly. If not, when they play a chord or note in different positions, some positions will be in tune and some will be out of tune."

I've found that the Earvana nut has helped tremendously on my Tele. Have no clue why.

Does anyone have a chart showing the tension (in foot pounds) on the ten strings in E9th, and C6th?

Bryant Aycock · Post by **Bryant Aycock** » 24 Jul 2012 1:05 pm

I saw a band oned and all the instruments were tuned by Mr. Guitar Player. What a mess. I say tune straight up, take a drink and get on with it.

Bryant Aycock · Post by **Bryant Aycock** » 24 Jul 2012 1:05 pm

I saw a band oned and all the instruments were tuned by Mr. Guitar Player. What a mess. I say tune straight up, take a drink and get on with it.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 24 Jul 2012 2:34 pm

Different bands are different,...
Some are very different.
I like me a bone head with a capo singing flat.
They always ask me what key they are playing in so they can tell everybody

John Turbeville · Post by **John Turbeville** » 24 Jul 2012 6:15 pm

What I was saying is that I tune using a chromatic tuner to E9, except the E's which I tune with the A/B pedals down. It seems like I'm having a problem with the A's when the A/B pedals are down, I'm wondering if I should be sharping the A's a few cents. Suggestions?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 24 Jul 2012 6:43 pm

A fourth will sound better _flatted_ a touch.
But then you've started down that road to JI.

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 24 Jul 2012 6:51 pm

My banjo has a compensated nut. My martins saddle is at an angle. So if we tune a steel straight and tune all the chords on open strings..when we put the bar down on certain frets something will be out...right? Its saddle...or rollers... is in a straight line. So a steel can't be compensated?

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Jul 2012 6:57 pm

I'm starting to wonder if strings made to be the as near the same tension at pitch might not help. Different core wire and winding sizes. But no one has answered my question about string tension.

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Tuning: playing with a band

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