p/p help with third string raise

david berzansky · Post by **david berzansky** » 2 Sep 2002 8:45 am

i reccently picked up my first push pull and i am excited to get it up and running properly so this may be the first of many posts asking for help.
the biggest problem to start with is i cant quite get the third string up to pitch. it looks to me that the changer finger is throwing as far as it possibly can. it is not resting on the set screw (from the back of the guitar) and when i pull on it, it hits the body. i am sure i am missing something simple here so any suggestions? thanks much
david b

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 2 Sep 2002 9:50 am

David,

Start by installing a new 011 string.

Pull the raise finger on the changer as far as it will go and tune to A. Release and tune the open / no pedals note to G# with the bottom screw on the changer. (this is called 'tuning the changer') This ensures you have enough throw at the changer and the balance point is correct. It should rest against the set screw when the pedal is not engaged and should pull up against the body when it is engaged.

---now do the same using the pedal ---
Push the B pedal and tune the A note with the tuning key for the third string. If it doesn't pull all the way up, you may need to back off of the setscrew that sets the pedal throw so it will travel further and hit the stop.

Release the pedal and tune the open G# using the bottom row of setscrews in the changer.

That should be all it takes. I'm not sure what you mean about not resting on the set screw. That's how you tune the note without the pedal depressed - the 'balance point'. Be sure nothing is stuck in there (like a string end, etc.) to prevent it returning to the midpoint. That's very important. You should have enough throw to BREAK that third string -- and then some. Good luck. C'mon back if this doesn't solve it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 02 September 2002 at 11:44 AM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 2 Sep 2002 11:16 am

It seems to me that there isn't enough slack in the rod from the bell crank to the 3rd finger,therefore the finger will not go back to the centre position. Move the collar on the rod towards the nut end of the guitar about 1/16 inch. Back off the pedal stop,to allow the pedal to travel far enough to raise the finger until it touches the body, then reset the pedal stop screw. Tune the string to A using the tuning head on the headstock. Release the pedal and tune to G# using the bottom screw on the end plate. If it still won't tune, adjust the collar a bit more.
Richard.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 2 Sep 2002 11:33 am

I would still make sure the changer is in tune. All the adjusting will do no good if the changer isn't in.

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1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

david berzansky · Post by **david berzansky** » 3 Sep 2002 2:50 pm

thank you guys so much for your help. i finally had a great night of pickin instead of tinkering. it was simply that there was not enough slack in the rod at the bellcrank to the finger so once i fixed that i was in buisiness. it was such a joy to get to play this beautifull thing in tune and sounding like it should.
i have to go back to work but i do have another tuning question when i have a chance. thanks again for all of your help,
david b

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 4 Sep 2002 9:44 am

David, glad to hear you are up and running. I wasn't aware there was any problem on the third when I shipped it. It seemed fine here, otherwise I would have fixed that before it went your way. They're fine when they're tuned right but a bear when they're not. The day we spent with Jay Dee, he was fine tuning it for quite a while but when it settled, gangbusters. Now, you not only sound the part but you also look it. I still have Tommy's video P/P that's sitting and I need to do some adjustments on it on the F lever to bring the 4th to pitch. That's more of a challenge and if I change brands of strings, it can throw the setting off again. They do require more tinkering but remember, they are a single raise and lower instrument.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Sep 2002 11:27 am

no they're not . . .
. . . they're INFINITE raise and lower instruments.

is that glass half empty or half FULL?????

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

david berzansky · Post by **david berzansky** » 5 Sep 2002 8:54 am

GARY,
NO BIG DEAL PAL, IT WAS ALL STRAIGHT WHEN I GOT IT SAVE FOR A BIT OF TWEAKING THAT IM NOT QUITE DONE WITH. WHAT KIND OF STRINGS DID YOU HAVE ON THE THING? I BROKE AND CHANGED THE THIRD WITH A STAINLESS STRING SO THAT MAY BE THE DIFFERENCE. I ALSO CHANGED THE HIGHT AND THE PEDAL TRAVEL SO REALLY ITS BEEN A GOOD WAY TO GET ACQUAINTED WITH THE PUSH PULL.
THANKS
DAVID B

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Sep 2002 9:28 am

David,
Just a bit of trivia:
When you buy stainless strings, this only refers to the windings on the wound strings. The plain strings are all the same, as are the cores on the wound strings. There are some reinforced unwound strings that have extra reinforcement above the ball end for guitars with whammy bars, palm pedals, string benders, and (of course) pedal steel. Those are just plain steel strings with reinforcement.

Hope that sheds some light. Enjoy that push-pull -- can't beat 'em with a stick!

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 September 2002 at 10:29 AM.]

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 5 Sep 2002 1:14 pm

...only refers to the windings on the wound strings. The plain strings are all the same.

Thanks, Larry. Every time I read a new stainless vs. nickle thread I wonder if everyone knows that only the wound ones are stainless or nickle. The plain ones are, well, plain steel.

david berzansky · Post by **david berzansky** » 5 Sep 2002 2:46 pm

well what about those of us who use a wound third string eh? just kidding, larry thanks for the heads up on that one, i didnt know that and i should.
david b

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 5 Sep 2002 6:22 pm

David, I forgot which ones I put on that one. I had George Ls and SITs and should have put the empty package in the case, I usually do. I think I broke the third string and replaced it with a SIT .011 last time, Gary.