Tuning Pedals Down?

[Franklin]

It seems that one person says A442 and another says A440 with 2 cents sharp as the same. They are not! If Paul really tunes his steel to A=442, he will be out of tune by 10 cents sharp, unless the group he is playing with also tunes to A=442. If instead the E's are tuned 2 cents sharp with the pedals down, and the rest are tuned to the root of A440, then you should be in tune with the group that also tuned to A440.


(steel player for last 58 yrs; piano tuner for last 42 yrs)

(I just turned 58, am gaining weight, and am still not as good as I wished I were, Thank God some folks hire me anyway)

In spite of his implication here, there is no "if" to whether I really tune everything by ear to 442. I would never mislead any of you about my tuning methods.....The musicians I work with are tuning mostly to 440.

Paul

[Bobby Boggs]

I also tune the E's 442 pedals up. For those using a tuner. I've found Newman's 442 chart workable with any brand of guitar.Not to say you won't want to tweak here and there. Using Newman's 440 chart will leave you 10 cents flat to the band.Unless the tone center of the band is 438. Which is not likely.

Just my 2 cents.
bb

[Franklin]

Pianos are tuned to Equal Temperment......How ET works is complex...I'll try to explain it as it was explained to me......

For the sake of clarity these following cent readings are rounded off to the nearest number.....ET actually has a mixture of cent readings which includes 436, 438, 440, 442, 444 and more. All of those ET varied note readings sound fine together because they are equally sharp and flat to the middle A 440 note........"ET" gives the piano a tuning method that keeps the instrument from having to be retuned for various keys as they once were a century or so ago....Since ET's discovery instruments tune with the piano by getting their notes from the octave that best fits the instruments sonic range.

The notes below the middle A 440 are flat at a gradual rate and the notes above the middle A 440 are sharp to it using that same gradual rate........ So if the bass player were to tune his instrument to the middle octave notes of the piano which is at 440 he would be sharp to the low notes of the piano's bass notes which sit somewhere in the low to mid 430 readings depending on who tuned the piano...... If we tune our E's to that same middle 440 reading we are flat for the same reason.......The bass guitar strings fit sonically with the low notes on a piano.....the steel fits sonically with the next octave up from 440 on the piano which is 442.

Newman's 442 chart is slipping the instrument into the correct octave of the piano for an easier blend.

This is important to know, the bass and electric guitars are tuning to ET.......

Also important......If anyone is using straight up ET, the strings are already graduating flat and sharp away from the initial A 440 note. The standard Boss tuners are set up for ET. So don't change anything and continue on tuning as you have been.

If the Newman 442 chart is being used or you are tuning by ear to an E note at 442, as I do, the method here is a slight compromise away from "Just Intonation" and tuning to 442 works great with the band using this method of intonation.

At the end of the day, let your ears guide you into the direction that is best for you.

PF

[Jerry Kippola]

Thanks for explainin that Paul, it makes perfect sense.
Finding your pitch center fit with whatever other players you're with. Early on I always wondered why my open pos was flat to everything, 'til I started messing with the tune center, which just felt better, and after seein Newman's 442 skewed tuning method i was hooked. In the current lineup I play with, the other guitarist uses a lot of capo, and the steel feels good against that. The question I would like to have answered is- i tune the e's to 442 and the rest by ear for no beats pretty much, except for the e-f raise which is a little sharper. Is that what you 442 guys do?

[Franklin]

Jerry K,

That's good....Follow your ears....No two players hold their bars exactly straight to the fret and exactly the same as the next guy....What gets nudged is decided on physical elements as well.....You are on the same playing field with the rest.

PF

[John Billings]

"the other guitarist uses a lot of capo,"

That can be problematic! If you're recording, and he pops on the capo, make him use his tuner again. Of course capos have improved a tremendous amount in the last 50 years, but can still pull a guitar sharp. My first capo was a short pencil, and a strong rubber band!

[Jim Bates]

I totally agree with Paul's last comment about letting your ears be the guide.

The use of the capo or the super thin gauge strings the lead guitar players use do play havoc with trying to keep in tune with them. Depending on where they 'grab' the chord it may be close to good or it can a total train wreck. This where your ears will guide your bar to help keep you in tune with whomever is out of tune the loudest. It may be never be at A=440 for any of the notes, but you the steel player can adjust infinitely.

A good test for you to try is play a tune in key of A and end the song with an open E chord going to an open A. Did the open E chord sound flat? A similar test is to play in E and end with the open E chord.
Again let your ears be the guide before you get to that final open chord.

(I just recently played a coffe house gig with my dobro, where I had to play duet with a "bagpipe". He was really between the frets, plus he was right next to me - goodbye ear training!) The crowd loved it though.)

Thanx,
Jim

[Ken Becker]

i thought i was gaining this animal ,,,but i see the beast is so far ahead ill never catch up,,,it's a good thing i like pork !!!!!!!ken