How important Is The Full Tone Raise On the 1st String?

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 27 Aug 2002 6:35 am

I'm partial to cables, and pulleys, and with good reason. Industry would gradually grind to a halt, without their use.

Total agreement here, Mr. Hankey!
They should also use 3/8 rolled steel for the body and neck and the strings should be routed through a circulating solvent bath.
Every one should come standard w/an overhead winch/crane and the finish should be some sort of carborundum/garnet mixture.
Oh well, the good old days are gone, eh Bill?

BTW, are you gonna be in St. Louis Friday evening? I can't tell you how excited I am at the prospect of actually getting to meet you and shake your hand!
I was looking forward to seeing Lloyd, Buddy and John but the very prospect of seeing you face to face makes me tingle from head to toe.
You have been a source of amazement to me since I laid eyes on your first post and you have never yet ceased to astound me.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 27 Aug 2002 1:00 pm

I added the whole step raise to the first string, about a year ago. I like the sound I get with it. I consider it, just another neat lick to use, when I'm playing fills. I used to pull it behind the bar, but, found it to be too time consuming, and not always accurate.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 27 Aug 2002 1:26 pm

Sorry John DeMaille, Marty P, John B. and Jeff S. , but Web T.V. has not given me your messages. I'm anxious to read what you have written. I posted a message over 24 hours ago, and I'm still waiting to have it posted on my Web T.V. This type of remiss service has been ongoing
throughout this post. The telephone is of no use. I've tried a few times months ago, only to find that responsible people will not pick up the phone. Whomever picked up the phone on three occasions, gave me instructions that were hatched out with no basic solutions. I'll just have to tolerate poor service.

Bill H.[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 29 August 2002 at 07:05 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 28 Aug 2002 8:09 am

This morning I contacted MSN by e-mail, to try to learn why the replies are not appearing on this post, as of early
on the 26th. My first reply is over 48 hours late in making the Forum.

Bill H.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 28 Aug 2002 9:20 am

Bill; This information is several years old but Bill Stafford wrote out his 14 string Excel tuning for me and he had a third chromatic string in front of his tuning. It was a G# and when I asked him why since his 4th string (our usual 3rd string..) was also a G#, he replied that he used it when that 4th string is pulled to an A. He then had a M7th on the chromatic G#. I thought that was very unique at the time but I'm sure you could agree that Bill is a unique person.

My next question is, of course; what does Bill do with his F# string as we are discussing it in this thread..... I have his chart here somewhere but since the tormado (or whatever that was..) hit us I can't find a thing !!

Regards, Paul[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 28 August 2002 at 10:26 AM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 28 Aug 2002 4:51 pm

I can't answer your question, Paul, but I did meet Bill Stafford at the annual steel convention in Michigan a few monthes ago. He showed me his Excel(I think)guitar, and told me the story behind his tuning, and I remember it as being basically a glorified, or extended E9. I don't remember if we discussed his changes or not. He also showed me one of his zirconia bars. I slid it around a little on his guitar, and couldn't believe how smooth it was. Of course he described it as being basically a jewel, and as such the price was prohbitive for my current state of affairs. I was impressed with how generous he was with his time and information.

Bill H.-Sorry about your e-mail problems. I'm sure that having to renounce moderator duties to an active thread is frustrating. I've never had deliveries delayed that long.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Aug 2002 4:57 am

Like a few others here, I think that Fender "dropped the ball" when they got out of the steel business! But then again, there's no reason whatsoever that a rodded guitar couldn't be as easy to change as a cable-job. Their PS-210 was a step in the right direction.

We just haven't had anyone sit down and logically rethink the design. The general concensus is..."it works, so why waste time and money trying to change it?" Fender (and many other companies) got out of the business because of the "time-consuming custom setups" that each steeler wanted. A redesign of the mechanics would have permitted fast tuning setups, and allowed them to produce a guitar in a more efficient (faster, i.e. cheaper) manner.

An alternative design would be to have a slightly more sophisticated changer mechanism, and then have one pull rod going from each pedal's crossrod to the changer. Then, all the adjustments for timing (leverage), and the number of strings pulled, could be made in one place (somewhat similar to PS-210, or the older Multi-Kord and Gibson designs).

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 29 Aug 2002 7:29 am

Jeff A. Smith,

Please review Page 1, 17th reply, and read what my message stated. It clearly states that the F# to G change, is indispensable. I went on to elaborate how important, and necessary the change is in reality. On a scale of 1 to 10, of the changes required in the E9th tuning, I would give it a 7. This would make it close runner to the 1/2 tone lower of the second string, which places itself in the 8 category. Of course, Lloyd Green's E to F change is a perfect 10. It's in for life, because of the multiples of uses, which have become commonplace, since its inception.

Bill H.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 29 Aug 2002 8:34 am

I have the whole tone raise on 1 and 7. For the unison thing, why not go up two frets, use the "C" pedal to pull str. 4 up to the same note as str. 1. Same sound.

On Jeff N's "Crazy Arms", he slants the bar to get this. Yes it's a two fret slant.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 29 Aug 2002 9:26 am

Marty P.,

Thank you for your mechanical assessments. In deference to your kind comments, I can't resist going
back in time to recall the neighborhood smithy, and his excellent workmanship, so vital to America's needs of 125 years ago. Those treasures of the past, have been replaced by the space race, and dubious borrowing, or spending, for living far beyond one's needs. There is something about the things you have written, that stirs my recollections to the "Good old days".

Have a wonderful time at St. Louis. My retina surgery in March is still on the mend. Hopefully, I'll be in attendance at Scotty's International event soon. I'll try to plan a visit there in the next two years.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 30 August 2002 at 07:20 AM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 29 Aug 2002 5:01 pm

Bill-

I read your answer on the previous page, and found it very informative in a general way. I was referring to the gentleman's request for the specific use of the change which is the most common. Besides mentioning using the change in combination with the A&B pedals, and discussing the 7th string, you mention this:

One example to stress is, the ease of going from a minor 7th to major 7th.

All of the above doesn't provide what I feel is the clear exact answer to his question, which is using the change to get the b7th note of a dominant 7th chord. I think most people would agree that this is the most common use of the 1st string 1/2 step raise. His question was very clear and specific to me. A minor 7th or a major 7th are not the same thing. Sorry if you see things differently.

Jeff S.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 29 Aug 2002 8:20 pm

This may be a little off topic, but Donny Hinson's post about Fender dropping pedal steels.

He has some good ideas. They could have improved the PS-210 so the Players could do their own tuning setups. They were 90% there.

With the rod as he has suggested, there would be no need for the factory to setup the special tunings. They could just crank them out, and you would put your own tuning setup on it.

I did that with the original Gibson Electra-Harp and it only took a few minutes, with a screwdriver. (Multi-Kord was a good Idea too but it wasn't a pro guitar.)

No need to get underneath the guitar,and you could put any pull you wanted on it.....al

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 30 Aug 2002 5:32 am

I hope this can help to understand the F#-G# on the 1st string and maybe give some ideas for other licks/riffs.
Consider Chord E string 8 6 5 at 12th fret with Chord E string 5 2 1 or 5 4 1 w/E-Eb lever engaged.
This is the same chord, different position, different timbre.
<pre>
5th fret 12 fret
string 1 F#-G# pull = A pedal 5th string
string 2 Eb-D-C# = the G#-F# lever 6th string
string 4 Eb-E release = B pedal 6th string
</pre>

You can also compare the 5th fret E with the 7th fret E (A+B pedals)
Then you will find that the B-Bb = B pedal and Eb-D-C# = A pedal and F#-G# = 4th string E-F#.

Without a raise on the 1st string I feel there is something missing. If it should be F#-G or F#-G# depends on what you want to play.

Bengt

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 30 Aug 2002 6:10 am

Jeff S.,

I have found to be factual, instances; where many mediocre steel guitarists, feel that the 1 and 7 strings 1/2 tone change, is not necessary in presenting their artistry on the steel guitar. I never hesitate to point out to that particular group of mucically inclined musicians, that they are missing out on an important change.

If you would, could we swing back, and put the crunch on the full tone raise? At the present time, I've been searching up and down the fretboard, seeking out different selections of combined notes, to make the change "stand out" in a band situation. Perhaps some of the greats of steel guitar, will offer a few tab arrangements, that they have diligently worked out. For my part, I keep thinking 5 chord, from whatever "tree" I'm working out of at the time. This technique allows me to establish my sense of direction. Later on, I would like to discuss the possibilities linked with pulling the 1st string to the (A) note. In doing this a player could actually break out of the 5 chord bondage. With a three note walk down, a player could harness the full tone 1st. string raise. Please be advised, I'll be adding the change after practising, and taking a hard look at the F# to G change.

Jeff, could we have another go around with the 1/2 tone inquiry? I keep thinking that I should be able to answer most questions concerning the 1st 1/2 tone string raise. I felt that the inquiry is vague, and not clearly stated.

Bill H.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 30 Aug 2002 1:04 pm

Bill-

It occurred to me after I posted last night that in using the terms "major 7th" and "minor 7th", you possibly were referring to single notes. That didn't even occur to me for quite awhile, because that terminology isn't usually encountered when indicating sigle notes; but rather the distance between two notes,(an interval), or a chord.

In referring to single notes, the terms "natural seventh" and "flatted seventh," or "lowered seventh," are often less confusing, and I believe technically correct.

If you were referring to single notes, and not major and minor seventh chords, then your original answer to the question did include by implication the dom. 7th chord. That was what I stated as the most common use for the 1/2 step 1st string raise.

I'll admit that even while I thought you were talking about chords, it wasn't clear to me how someone would get all the notes needed for a major 7th or minor 7th chord in the AB pedals down position, with the usual basic E9 setup.

If I was too hung up on my view of correct theoretical terminology to see what you were talking about, sorry.

Jeff S.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 31 Aug 2002 1:55 am

Even if the 1st string pulls only F#-G you can still get that maj7 chord.
Here is how to get to Root,3rd,5th & 7th sounding at the same time.
A+B and F#-G give a Dom7 on strings 6 5 4 1
Halfpressing the Apedal in the same position will give a minor7th on the same strings. This is also the same minor7th you get 1 fret higher (no pedals, no F#-G & E's to Eb)
minor7th on strings 6 5 4 1.
Halfpress Apedal while keeping E's-Eb and you get the dom7 on strings 6 5 4 1 (a position i really like when playing blues because the full Apedal give me the 4th note and I can release to a b3rd and squeeze to the 3rd) With this Dom7th located 1fret higher than the A+B (or the minor position w/E's lowered) pulling F#-G will change the Dom7 into a Major7th chord.

Even without the F#-G or F#-G# you can still find the Maj7 from the A+B positon if you can lower 2nd string from Eb-D.
Play string 6 5 4 A+B pedals for the major chord and then play 2frets higher strings 5 2 1 (no pedals, 2nd string Eb-D) for the Maj7th sound. If you let the notes ring and slide up one fret and release 2nd back to Eb you have nice chord progression I IMaj7 IV or I IMaj7 IIm7 or I IIIm7 IV. Sounds different with different bass notes.

The raise on the 1st string is a whole lot more than dom7th in A+B or unison with 3rd string to me. It just makes several things a lot more easy to play and there are things you can do with it that is impossible without.

Bengt

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 31 Aug 2002 4:39 am

Bengt,

Thank you for your valuable input. The information provided by you is a refreshing treat. It is indicative of a caring, and sharing musician. A friend of mine, who plays guitar, visited my home once a week, for nearly 15 years. He is without question, a chord genius. For years I had felt that something was "missing" in my own musical expression, until I met Howard. It became a time to face up to using proper chordal arrangements, while elbowing aside "written" material that proved to be less than helpful. Howard was no stranger to music theory. Most of his friends are uptown musical theorists. It was about that time, that I began to develop the four, and five string grabs, to facilitate accessibility to chords that are rich, and resonating. The combination of this new technique, and Howard's instructions, proved to be the answer to difficult chordal progressions. I demonstrated the technique at the P.S.G.A.'s Show, in Armonk, N.Y., in 1992, by playing "Tea For Two", and "Misty". My only regrets after the show, was not displaying my true identity. I neglected to let the great players who were present, realize that my first line of interest, is Country music. That could determine how a country boy is received.

Returning to the thread, I would like to refer to the all important "location" of knee lever placement. Many of the steel guitar builders have a penchant to locate the 1 and 7 change on RKL. That can prove to be awkward. I discovered, inadvertently, that the change works like a charm on LKV. To access the A&B pedals, combined with the 1&7 change, allows for accuracy in reaching for the 7th chords. Proper placement of knee levers is the bottom line to more enjoyable playing.

BTW, a major 7th, and the most resonating selection, can be found using a four string grab on strings 2,5,6,and 8. No pedals, no knee levers. Simple, and beautiful, when applied to chordal arrangements.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 31 August 2002 at 07:56 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 31 August 2002 at 09:17 AM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 31 Aug 2002 3:18 pm

I rarely use it, so it's not that important to little ol' me.

------------------
www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Sep 2002 4:38 am

Drew H.

Your response is very interesting, notwithstanding the conciseness of your reply. I respect the position that you have assumed, even though it left me desiring additional input from your good offices. It is my hope that you will respond again by elucidating on the matter which concerns the 1st. string full tone raise.

Bill H.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Sep 2002 6:19 am

Paul G.

I'm interested in the Bill S. tuning, and his pedal/knee setup. Thanks for the input, which denotes that quite possibly, there is something to be learned by scutinizing Bill's method of arranging notes, knees, and numbers accordingly.

Bill H.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 1 Sep 2002 8:09 am

edited as my post was irelevant to Bill's topic.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 01 September 2002 at 03:12 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Sep 2002 5:20 pm

Jody C.

Thanks for the informative reply, of which I'm trying to approach with caution, while always keeping in mind your impressive connections with the late Leo Fender. I did go over your reply prior to the deletion. However, please note that it would be like entering into a state of folly, if I were to emerge as someone who remotely considered attempting to coverse at your level of expertise. In keeping with the thread, I'd certainly be delighted to hear from you, should you care to fill me in on some of your thoughts that are linked to pedals, and knee levers, and ultimately zeroing in on advantages of the 1st string, full tone raise.

Bill H.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 3 Sep 2002 2:49 pm

Bengt-

Thanks for the examples. I'll admit that I have been avoiding much use of the half-pedal technique.

Bill said:

My only regrets after the show, was not displaying my true identity. I neglected to let the great players who were present, realize that my first line of interest, is Country music. That could determine how a country boy is received.

Although I don't know what you look like in person Bill, I get an interesting picture of you bantering between songs while dressed in appropriate western garb.

Jeff

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 3 Sep 2002 4:36 pm

Jeff S.

I enjoy laughing at ordinary things that turn out to be silly or funny, but never when it's at another person's expense or misfortune. In fact, I don't find enough humor in everyday trivia. Today, I spent several hours in my basement, soldering, affixing new half-stops, and improving on the full scope of the full tone 1st string raise, as well as the 2nd. string 1/2 tone raise. Finally, I was able to test the changes for virtual pinpoint accuracy. I wasn't disappointed, after bending my back for an extended period of time. When I carried my steel back upstairs, and jammed my left knee against the LKV, the change jumped out at me better than ever. Bringing the two changes to the designated pitches, and combining them on one knee is the key. If the two notes are played before the knee lever is engaged, the resulting pitch changes, offer a wide array of new areas to work out a variety of intros, fills, etc.

Bill H.[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 03 September 2002 at 06:05 PM.]