How important Is The Full Tone Raise On the 1st String?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 14 Aug 2002 10:26 am

I'm curious about the change on the E9th neck. How many advanced steel guitarists are finding it indispensable? One disadvantage to point out, is: it's excessively recognizable. I don't recall reading about a specific gauge string, that would be most suitable for the full tone raise. Perhaps someone on the Forum would know how to blend a pattern of ascending, and descending combinations of notes, to turn some heads.

Bill H.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 14 Aug 2002 11:31 am

I tried it for a while and it's ok. However it breaks a lot of strings,is overused and many of the same effects(unison strings,etc) are available elsewhere on the neck.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Aug 2002 12:02 pm

It sure does sound "country", don't it?

I had it for a while but didn't find it very useful, maybe because it was on a pedal itstead of a knee lever. It never broke the string on my guitar.

Sounds like a candidate for a second Lucky 7.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

David Spires · Post by **David Spires** » 14 Aug 2002 12:03 pm

When you stop and think about it, you can do without almost any change, and play your normal gig that way. With that said, the first string, full tone raise has become a "staple" for me - and I think any modern, country steel guitarist. The more unison pulls I get on the E9th tuning, the more I love that unique aspect of the tuning (the separations and pulling together). The question you might ask yourself is - "Do I like the sound of that pull?" If you do, go for it. If not, try something else. Just because a pull is popular doesn't mean that it is the best thing for you to have.

For what it is worth, I use a .012" on the 1st string, and I have never broken it on my Carter, my old MSA, or my Sierra.

Good luck,

David Spires

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 14 Aug 2002 12:16 pm

I have high F# -> G# on some of my steels. I almost never use it at home when fooling around or working on something. But I find that I do use it quite a bit when recording country style. Even when I had it on a pedal (not on a knee lever) I'd go for it when the red light is on and I'm playing all feel and no brains.
I use .013 and it never breaks.

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 14 Aug 2002 12:18 pm

On my 75PP I only raise the 1st stg 1/2 step to G.
On my Fessenden S10D, I raise the 1st stg one whole step to G#. I was going to change the pull on the Fessenden to just the 1/2 step raise to G, but the more I played with the F#-G# change, the more I like it.
One of first things I found was to pick the 3rd stg with the B pedal down, release the B pedal and pick the 1st stg with the KL in, then release the KL then pick the 4th stg.
A nice double resolve going from V - I.
I don't listen to alot of "modern country" radio, so if that lick has been beat to death or is old hat to ya'll, it's new to me.
JE:-)>

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 14 Aug 2002 12:57 pm

Unless I'm in error, Paul Franklin kicked the full tone "lick" clean through, for a field goal in Alan Jackson's song: "THERE GOES". Just one play, and country steel guitarists zoomed in, for a closer look at the arrangement. I realize that he didn't introduce the actual change. He did however, push it to the limit, by demonstrating how to put the change to use. Armed with the knowledge that the raise is compatible with the 3rd, and 4th strings, perhaps a player could pull his attention away from the common "decoy", and explore other possibilities.

Bill H.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 14 Aug 2002 1:37 pm

I ain't no advanced player but, the first time I came across that change was in a Jeff Newman course years ago. He taught it using a forward bar slant. That method works fine for me. No string breakage either.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn www.kevinfowler.com

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 14 Aug 2002 2:47 pm

Glenn,

I feel that there is something to be desired, when you substitute bar slants for mechanical string raises and lowers. The great masters, such as Jerry Byrd, Herby Remington, and others, are superbly gifted for bar slant techniques. This doesn't account for P. Franklin's incredible setup, and his ability to squeeze out some of the prettiest steel this side of heaven. The 1st string has even more potential, if the 2nd string is not included in a given tuning setup; provided that the G# is next in line, followed by the "E" note. It is an absolute guarantee to win the respect of string "stretchers" of the 6 string Spanish guitar group.

Bill H.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 14 Aug 2002 2:51 pm

I also use this change a lot. I have a problem with it on a knee lever because that knee also pulls the 4th string on my 6th neck from an A to a Bb. That one I use a lot more and when I had .013s on the other string (1st on the E9th ++) they would break.

The first time it happened I had no idea the string was gone. Something was just very wrong with E9th. It didn't feel right and was a puzzle until I figured out what had happened. I went to .012R Ernie Balls just like my 3rd string is a .011R EB and it hasn't broken since then.

I also like the sound of that whole tone raise to G# with A & B pedals down where it becomes a nice M7th for endings.

Regards, Paul

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 14 Aug 2002 6:15 pm

I love it!!

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 14 Aug 2002 7:58 pm

I've got that full tone raise on string one, and while it's nice to play licks with, I'm finding the half tone raise more useful for seventh chords , with A and B pedals down. Perhaps a halfstop of some sort is in my future.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 14 Aug 2002 8:08 pm

Glenn, I get a weak 1/2 stop from my 2nd string raise on the same lever.

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 14 Aug 2002 8:47 pm

Me too, Jim. I have only been raising the 2nd for about a year. I used a bar turn before. Lowering the 6th on this pedal is a nuisance. Know what I mean?

I don't know when this change was introduced, but I was pulling the string
a whole tone (almost) with the ring finger in 1973, at the age of 14.

I use a .013 SIT on my push/pull and I think it has broken once.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Aug 2002 8:53 pm

The high F# is the one string on my guitars that I don't alter with a pedal or knee lever. I used to raise it to G, but I took it off because it didn't seem necessary. I still get that note with a bar slant, which sounds better to my ear anyway.

I've seen Jeff Newman pull his high F# with his fingers behind the bar. What a show-off!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 15 Aug 2002 2:36 am

I raise to both G and G#. I like the sound of both changes. I have considered taking off the G, but have, as usual, procrastinated for a few years...

b0b, I pull the half tone raise with my fingers from time to time, too. It's not so much showing off as it is quicker in some cases.

I've also seen Buddy pull the 6th string on the C6 a half tone behind the bar. (Same as an E to F change.)

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My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 15 Aug 2002 4:26 am

Ernie,

I've found that the F# to G has truly established its permanence as part of the E9th setup. Nothing in the line of cajolery, could dissuade me to ever try to do without the change. In a matter of choice, the raise has found a "good home" on my cellar creation. Take for example, the song: "I'm Looking Over, A Four Leaf Clover", to expressly point out how the change can be used to keep the melody line intact. In the song, the words: "that I overlooked before", calls for the F# to G chg., I.M.H.O. I worked out the little "ditty", and as it turns out, the song is loaded with chord changes, that can only restore any doubts, and prove that the steel guitar is the "chords +" instrument of the day.

Bill H.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Aug 2002 5:29 am

I Like the full tone raise, I try not to over use it and kill it but for some tunes it is a fine pull and any time I can add a unison pull I think it adds to a Country tune whether it is in the solo voicing or at the tune end phrase. Now that being said I am also working on using the full raise lever half way for the half raise..I like that too when it's in tune ! It's ugly out of tune though...
tp

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Aug 2002 7:33 am

The F#-G# move does have a lot of that "whiney" character that a lot of people don't seem to care for. In the pedals up position, the change is superflous, anyway, since the same move is available on 5,6,& 8, with the split pedals, and it has "fuller" sound. None of the guitars I have now has that change, but one of them does raise the F#-G for those real old Lloyd Green licks.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 15 Aug 2002 8:59 am

Donny H.

Whoa! Slow down Donny! "Whiny"? "Old Lloyd Green licks"? Exclusion from your steel guitars? How can this be? You've undoubtedly heard of "The Crying Steel Guitar", and of Lloyd's prowess, which happens to be, inimitable, on all fronts. In addition, a player could hold his own, if the music suddenly shifts from old country, to new country. You know, the old familiar, cha,cha,cha, beat, ("Proud Mary", or "Johnny B. G." rhythm). Between the two sevenths, 2nd str. lower, and 1st str. raise, a player can take control, if called upon. The 9th str., or E-F chg. is there for a quick response to any 3 or 4 chord country rock choices.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 15 August 2002 at 01:28 PM.]

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 15 Aug 2002 11:19 am

i've never added it...but get some of the sounds using my independent E-F# raise to unison #1 and go up or down 2 frets.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 15 Aug 2002 3:06 pm

Donny,
Is that LG's "recently" added 4th knee,
moving F# - G#. I was thinking that it was
a different move. Would like to establish this. Thanks. ChipsAhoy

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Aug 2002 6:55 pm

Bill, yes the F#-G# sure sounds like one of those "whiney" licks "everyone" (those detractors of the instrument) talks about!

Also, yes, those "old sounds" of Lloyd's... the ones he made behind Johnny Paycheck's greatest hits, are the ones of which I speak. Maybe he was just twistin' the bar, but I raised the 1st 1/2 because it worked better for me.

Chip, I don't know what Lloyd's new 4th pedal does because I don't makes changes to my rig based on what someone else does. You see, I have played my own personal (unique) setup... the exact same pedal and tuning setup...for over 25 years! I figure that's pretty rare. When will I change it? Maybe...when I get another guitar.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 16 Aug 2002 5:42 am

I hear you, Donny
I've been using the same S-12 universal setup for 25 years as well. It includes six pedals and six levers and I have one guitar with that configuration. Any time I buy a new one I start with that setup and add. The 1st/2nd/7th raise and 'PF P4' are two that I have found useful, but I can easily play a gig without either and be perfectly comfortable.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 16 Aug 2002 6:06 am

Donny H.,

Thanks for pumping life into the current post, submitted by yours truly. Your zestful commentary is always welcome, as is the many who have generously given of their time, to help establish new trains of thought, by implementing new ideas on the subject matter.

Now, and then, the contemplative "hook", will latch on to informative information, which benefits those who might have overlooked something in their quest for advancement; musically.

When you had written about remaining untempted, to change your setup on your steel (guitars), I immediately became interested. It's exciting to think that someone may hold the key to a variation of the E9th standard tuning, with 3 on the floor, and five good working knees.

I hope to hear some of your music, should the opportunity present itself.

Bill H.