Is it really that hard to figure out ?

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 16 Jul 2012 12:25 am

Is there a nice way to ask other players not to play on top of your playing? Steel shows are really a blessing for us steel pickers that just want to play our part and ease out until it's time to come back in. Staff musicians at steel shows actually know when and when not to play. It's not that I want to blow the doors off of the building anywhere but I'd like to be able to just play the steel parts and fade out, so someone else can come in. Yea, I've mentioned this before but thought maybe some of you guys might have found a solution for others that just play all over your parts and don't think a thing about it. Maybe at 55, I just don't have the patients I once had and don't tend to put up with BS anymore. Thank goodness for the SGF! At least here, we're with our own kind!

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 16 Jul 2012 2:22 am

Billy, a friend of mine who plays steel and also sings had to tell his lead player who kept playing over his vocals "when my lips move you DON'T play" , seemed to work , the lead player now leaves him plenty of space both on vocals and steel riffs.

Alan Tanner · Post by **Alan Tanner** » 16 Jul 2012 3:03 am

I think a lot of this comes from "more is better" thinking. It probably also comes from a lot of home playing or being the only lead instrument in the group, and there is also just plain ignorance of how a group charge needs to function to sound the best.Some guys think that someone needs to be playing backup ALL the time. Working with one, two, three or more other musicians demands concentration and respect for the other guys space. A lot of pickers don't have this information. Lead guitar players are also used to being the only lead instrument on stage, and get carried away. I played for years in a band where I used a synth to cover for banjo, fiddle, piano, sax, and trumpet. I also used a volume pedal to cover "quasi" steel guitar sounds. I like it when I can play with other guys and I don't have to work so hard, and it sounds great to toss it around on stage and hear the different styles of the other pickers. Fiddlers and harmonicas to me are the worst, playing from the first note until the last one dies out. Steel players wood shedding in the background and chiming and blowing whistles and horns is obnoxious too. I guess you can try your best to be diplomatic about it and explain that the music will sound much better, even the individual parts will have way more impact, if we take turns and back off. I have found, however, that this usually falls on deaf ears, so good luck.

Howard Steinberg · Post by **Howard Steinberg** » 16 Jul 2012 3:27 am

There are players out there who just don't get the "rules of engagement," when playing with other soloing musicians. In my experience which covers a broad musical spectrum, I've found this with players having limited experience and with horn players who perhaps have played too much dixieland. Playing tasteful fills and staying out of a singer's or soloist's space seems conceptually simple enough but for some takes time to develop. I've had this happen to me many times and have taken the offender aside to explain the issue, with varying results.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 16 Jul 2012 3:42 am

Enlightenment comes with great difficulty to some....

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 16 Jul 2012 6:02 am

Alan Tanner, you just became one of my favorite members here.

it probably also comes from a lot of home playing or being the only lead instrument in the group

Lead guitar players are also used to being the only lead instrument on stage, and get carried away.

Yup. I find that most of these guys did a lot of time in 3 piece bands. They have to fill so many gaps that they forget how to play with other lead instruments. I usually find that if I have to play with a guitar player that normally plays in a 3 piece band, I am doomed. I also can't listen to 3 piece bands for more than an hour. I go see some of my best friends play in 3 piece bands, some really killer musicians, but being bombarded with lead guitar every second of the song really gets to me. I have to leave.

Fiddlers and harmonicas to me are the worst, playing from the first note until the last one dies out.

Well, you almost get an "Amen" from me on this one. Most local amateur or semi-pro fiddle players fit that mold. But there are some that play by the rules of the stage and are a pleasure to play with. But then, the one's that do, about half don't know how to get their fiddle in tune, or play in tune. Around here, they (the good ones) are few and far between though. Now, harmonica players are a different story. Without getting into technical anatomy terms (think about it), the small nature of their instrument means they have to try and steal the show and play the same 3 patterns they know over and over. I really HATE the harmonica.

I guess you can try your best to be diplomatic about it and explain that the music will sound much better, even the individual parts will have way more impact, if we take turns and back off. I have found, however, that this usually falls on deaf ears, so good luck.

I have been playing "professionally" for over 40 years and have found this to be true about half the time. But, I have actually left decent bands where the only problem was the over-playing guitar player. Another technique I have used is to stop playing leads and fills (being stubborn and childish). When some one in the band bitches that they can't hear you, they open the door to you mentioning that "why play? You won't be able to hear me over the guitar player." That sometimes works to open their eyes. If it doesn't, threaten to leave if it it doesn't get corrected. If they don't care, you weren't really wanted to begin with. Time to move on (or retire for a while as I did once).

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 Jul 2012 7:15 am

Flick boogers (at the lead guitarist).

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 16 Jul 2012 7:26 am

They are usually dancing around and a very hard to hit moving target. Plus, I have to keep my bar on the strings, so I have to use my picking hand (OK, so the pun WAS intended - shoot me) and the finger picks usually fly off at him, which normally wouldn't be a bad thing if it would inflict some pain and stop his over-playing. But all it does is feed him a free meal (yuck) and cause you to have to break in a new finger pick.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 Jul 2012 7:57 am

I set the stage from the first get together by saying...
"Does everybody agree that, the only instruments that should be playing from the beginning to the end of every song are the bass and drums???... and possibly the rhythm guitar strummer?".
It gets good from there!

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 16 Jul 2012 8:33 am

I just finished a relatively lengthy post about monitors and mixing sound that comes back to this point, if the musicians don't leave room for each other to play in the sound system can never do the job for them. It's the biggest difference between a professional and a hack....

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 16 Jul 2012 8:47 am

I've always been a shy, bashful, introverted sort of a guy preferring always to remain in the background as opposed to the up front center stage type of personality.

I've found that when all else doesn't work effectively, one can take bolder steps to convery a tho't to an otherwise dysfunctional wanna-be musician.

I simply stopped playing and started packing up my gear right in the middle of an instrumental selection. When asked what I was doing, I politely informed the band that since they had a guitarist that could play everybody's part that they didn't need me.

The band was shocked! Silence prevailed.......

After some pleading with me, I decided to stay and thereafter the 'noisey one' could barely be heard throughout the rest of the gig. Months later I ended up in a one night stand and there he was again.
He must've remembered me too, as his playing was far more reserved thro-out the evening.

No need for confrontation.........

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 16 Jul 2012 9:00 am

In one band that I played with, we had a fiddle player who "laid out" on difficult fills, but jumped in at excessive volume on signature licks that any moron could play.

Our guitar player who was not known for his political correctness, eventually told him: "Hey buddy, when you put that fiddle under your chin, you've got it." ....and everyone else in the band stopped playing.

I'm not sure that he got the message, but he did get easier to work with.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 16 Jul 2012 9:05 am

A bass player, listening to a recording, will listen for the bass, as will a fiddle player for the fiddle, etc. Only the audience hears the whole thing as an ensemble, and most of them don't know how to distinguish between instruments; they just take in the overall sound.

When you listen to a symphony orchestra, are you consciously aware of the different instruments, or do you just absorb the overall sound ?>

It's human nature to want to be heard, and musicians are often more interested with their own part than the overall sound. The wise musician knows when not to play, and this is more important than when to play.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 16 Jul 2012 9:23 am

Ray said:I simply stopped playing and started packing up my gear right in the middle of an instrumental selection.

Right on Ray! Thanks for the affirmation! Thats excatly what I did yesterday(sunday). Actions speak louder than words. Thank you sir!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 Jul 2012 9:46 am

I also like to mention... "You don't actually have to stop playing... You just need to turn your volume down to zero during the time that it's another players turn to play an intro/outro/fill or solo".

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 Jul 2012 9:49 am

The way some of these lead guitarists act, it's like asking them to let you share the fills and rides is like asking them to amputate their penises.

I was in a situation once where the guitarist argued with me about it. saying something along the lines of "I don't know what that thing (the steel) does, but I'm the lead guitarist, I play the leads."

Our fellow forumite Mike Johnstone (who is a magnificent player,) tells of a gig where the guitar player did not let him play a single fill or take a single ride all night, and then somebody requested Steel Guitar Rag, and the guitarist played the whole song from beginning to end, and still didn't allow Mike to play a solo.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 16 Jul 2012 10:02 am

Oh, come on Mike. Everyone knows Steel Guitar Rag is supposed to be played on a six string.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 Jul 2012 10:44 am

You could always bring an extra cell phone I guess...
Pop it in the back of the guys amp and call it every time he takes a solo (If you've ever left your cell phone on top of your amp when a call comes in, you know what I mean).
Some kind of remote sabotage is in order!

I think I have a TV remote that will do the same thing. I will have to field test it for distance and direction-ality. I'm gonna point & click this guys solo into what sounds more like machine gun fire!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 16 Jul 2012 12:01 pm

I've been playing guitar a lot longer than steel guitar, and even I admit that I get frustrated with the tendency of many guitarists (and other instruments also, including steel) to play over everything. But the dirty little secret is that what is 'correct' here is often style-dependent.

If you're playing in a rock and roll band, fairly loud rhythm guitar churning and burning through the entire song is often a legitimate role. The problem is that many guitarists coming out of that background don't know to or don't know how to make the translation to different styles.

The point about guitarists (or keyboard players) in a 3-piece band is also on-target. Sometimes they need to be reminded that they don't need to cover every single base - relax and leave something for the rest of the band. It's like a pitcher trying to strike every batter out - my coach used to tell me, "Hey, don't try so hard. There are 8 other guys on the field. You don't have to strike every batter out." Sidenote: I've occasionally seen a good musician who's used to covering for bad musicians. Occasionally, it's appropriate when other musicians just aren't up-to-snuff or having some problem (like they're real drunk, seriously out-of-tune, or whatever). But not when you're dealing with good musicians.

BTW - I think it's a very bad idea to pack up and leave in the middle of a song at a professional gig. Many if not most musicians I know would never work again with someone after witnessing that (either in the band or in the audience). I think it's easy enough to wait until the end of the set, or at a jam session, until the end of the song. It's one thing to say, "Hey, this is not OK.", explain why, and then make a quiet departure at an appropriate moment, but quite another to make a demonstration onstage. I remember one time that I sat down and stopped playing (guitar) in the middle of a song - the leader had brought several jammers onstage, there was way too much going on, and the stage was so crowded I could barely hold my guitar straight, much less play. Even still, I got a bag of you-know-what about it, that single, stupid event ultimately led to my departure from that band, and some of those guys carry an attitude about me to this day.

I was in a situation once where the guitarist argued with me about it. saying something along the lines of "I don't know what that thing (the steel) does, but I'm the lead guitarist, I play the leads."

Where do you guys come up with these guitarists? I've never played with a guitarist that ignorant. Anyway - don't most pedal steel players come equipped with a 200-300 watt amp that can reduce even a Marshall stack to rubble when set on stun? One time I just pointed my steel amp at the guitar player - every time he ran over me, I just pushed down my volume pedal and drowned him out. He got the message. The potential problem is if the rest of the band doesn't really want steel either, but then again, why play steel with those kind of people anyway? I'd just move on, but then again I have a day job.

Bob Mc Donald · Post by **Bob Mc Donald** » 16 Jul 2012 12:11 pm

I really enjoyed the band I was with for the first two year's,couldn't wait to play on the weekends doing nice classic country music..( but ) then
we got a new bass player,was ok for a bit but then
he started over playing more so in between the line's
and I found it was taking away from the lead,,nice
little fill's and so on but the bass would over power
me with fast and unrelated stuff,,( but the boss would not let me say anything to him )I quit and two
drummer's later and he is still there...

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 16 Jul 2012 1:56 pm

As the saying goes...

You can't fix stupid.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 16 Jul 2012 3:09 pm

I agree with Dave. Packing up and leaving is not a good idea. You might packing up and leaving any future calls for gigs. Sometimes I find it best to just shut and play the gig and leave at the end of the night with a couple of bucks in my pocket.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Jul 2012 4:15 pm

Many modern "lead guitarists" know only how to play lead because that's where 99.9% of the emphasis is nowadays when one is learning guitar. YouTube posts on "lead guitar" outnumber those on "rhythm guitar" by about a thousand to one.

And that, I do believe, is most of the problem.

Of course, steelers are guilty too, since YouTube posts on playing intros, rides, and melodies on pedal steel seem to outnumber those on playing rhythm on pedal steel by about two thousand to one!

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 16 Jul 2012 4:16 pm

Packing up and leaving is not a good idea.
It was a great idea, at least this time. They e-mailed me the next day,(today) and apologized, also said they'd be lookin for a new guitar player. Asked me if I knew anybody.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 16 Jul 2012 4:34 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:Many modern "lead guitarists" know only how to play lead because that's where 99.9% of the emphasis is...

Another thing I've noticed is that, unlike the old days, when instrumental breaks were sympathetic to the melody, a lot of modern lead guitarists go off into a little world of their own, and their riffs are aimed at showing people how fast they can run their fingers up and down the scales. The number soon becomes an instrumental with vocal breaks, rather than the other way round.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Is it really that hard to figure out ?

Is it really that hard to figure out ?

Is it really that hard to figure out?

Just one pickers' experience...................