P/P mech. mystery

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 27 Aug 2002 5:11 pm

On my old p/p, after playing a while, my 5th string raise (C# A pedal) will sound sharp, so I bring it down... then the no-pedal B sounds flat, so I adjust it at the endplate. But, then shortly afterward it happens again. I can't just keep tuning it at the endplate... something is up here.
I've lubricated it, changed the string, checked the underside for mechanical snags... No dice. It keeps happening.

So, any ideas what the heck is going on here ?? How can a raise suddenly become sharp ? I mean, the finger is resting on the body, it can't go any further. I'm stumped.
-John

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 27 Aug 2002 5:43 pm

And you say you lubricated the roller nut
for that string also? Maybe the tuner is
the culprit? How about swapping it with
another one. Sheeesh, that is a strange one.

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<a href=http://members.localnet.com/~jsganz/Steelin'.mpg>Push/Pull Video Clip</a>[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 27 August 2002 at 06:49 PM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 27 Aug 2002 6:39 pm

Check to make certain there is not a notch worn in the wood where the finger pulls against the body. This would be a rare thing to happen but I suppose it could. If so sometimes the finger could bottom out in the notch causing it to go sharp other times it might miss the worn area and be flat. I really doubt that to be the problem but something to look for anyway. I would also be very certain that the finger is reaching the wood solid every time. Check it when it is pulling flat to see that it is making firm contact with the stop (body).
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 27 August 2002 at 07:43 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 27 Aug 2002 7:21 pm

What Jerry said.+ there is a good chance that strings 4&6 or others if you lower them are returning sharp.Cleaning and lubing the roller nut might just take care of that.You said sounded sharp.I'm sure you have a great ear but you might want to verify if it's going sharp, and how much with a tuner.

9 out 10 of the used guitars I have bought,arrive with the changer soaked with oil.Still they have return problems.Almost every time the problem has been the rollers.Folks soak,(most over do it) the changer with oil but forget to (CLEAN) and lub the rollers.Make sure there is no drag in the roller nuts. just my experience bb bb [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 27 August 2002 at 08:29 PM.]

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 27 Aug 2002 7:29 pm

Ha...nice....if you have a spring on that string, make sure it isn't rotating and giving you more/less pull. If they don't have a tube on them, they can rotate ever so slightly, and do just what you're describing. Check it out, and if that's it, remember...tipping is not a city in China. The body stop suggestion is pertinent only if you don't have the pedal stop adjusted right, and you're going way beyond the point of the finger stop and mashing springs real bad and then only if you're reeeeeaaaly heavy footed and the hogs don't eat ya'...sorry Jerry. If your spring is broken, it can also cause this. Make sure your bellcrank is not loose, and your shorts are too tight. Make sure that raise rod is not hanging up on a support. Finally, if your undercarriage has the color of Lassie's last specimen.......douche the whole thing and get a tetanus shot. Gee, I hope this helps someone....it was good for me.[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 27 August 2002 at 08:31 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 27 Aug 2002 7:35 pm

I've never tried a spring on my string.

I know what you mean.I think you may have just got John up and going.

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 27 Aug 2002 8:41 pm

I stated that I did not think the problem was with a groove worn into the wood where the lever stops but it is something that should be looked at because it can happen.
It is true that a spring that has a cut end riding against a round surface of a swivel can cause problems by turning and causing a change in tension, so a cut spring end should always ride against a flat surface such as a tube. If that is the problem then the finger is not coming to rest against the stop everytime. You did not say if the "B" is staying in tune throughout the process. If you are also having to tune the open "B" string with the tuning key then I would say the lowering spring down next to the body of the guitar does not have enough tension to keep the lowering finger pulled firmly against the stop at all times. I would be sure and check to see that the lowering finger is staying snug against the stop. All the ideas mentions should be checked out and you should find the problem.
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 27 August 2002 at 10:53 PM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 27 Aug 2002 8:44 pm

Goodnight all!

[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 27 August 2002 at 09:49 PM.]

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 27 Aug 2002 11:23 pm

It certainly could be the lower return spring. Add a little tension to it. The culprit from the start is probably a set screw that is losing it's bite. Every so often, on any guitar that has set screws, they should be checked and if need be, be retightened. Many times they have to be replaced. Also, have you a few really good quality new long and short shank 5/64" allen hex wrenches. After prolonged use (sometimes not so prolonged) they wear on the hex shoulders and are basically useless. You can "trim" them, but this takes a lot of skill and knowhow to do without softening them.
As for the "shock" or "cushion" springs on the push and pull rods, the examples stated above can certainly happen,,,,,,this is just one of the reasons why I use as few as possible. If the "factory" flat or square end is cut off, you should dress it down as best you can and hope for the best.
BTW John, are you coming to St. Louis? Hope to see ya there my friend and "Brother".
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 28 Aug 2002 9:39 am

Loads of great info here... thank you everyone.
I will be checking all your suggestions today, and I'll report on it.
I really appreciate all you guys taking the time to share your knowledge.
BB, at the moment I have no preparations made to go to St. Louis (hotel, etc) but you never know. Sometimes I grow a wild hair at the last minute. If so, you may see me wandering around St. Loo aimlessly.

It would be great to see you again too!
-John

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 28 Aug 2002 10:10 am

Once in a GREAT while, AFTER you've checked everything else referenced in this thread, and there's just NOTHING LEFT, you MAY find that if you remove the changer mechanism and the fingers, that the steel "axle" under there is all rusty and funky. It's a piece of 3/8 tool steel is all, and WILL rust. I sincerely hope that's NOT your problem, but keep it in the back of your mind.

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 28 Aug 2002 10:17 am

all guitars drift somewhat, esp. p/p's. The 5th & 6th strings are usually the biggest culprits,in my experience. Most of it has to do with how the string is put on the tuning gear. A couple of turns to the inside then the rest to the outside will lock it on the post adequately. Additionally, when changing strings, make sure that they come from the post straight to the roller.
The spring having a spacer in front of it or not wont usually affect the raise, unless its broken (the spring).
Also, check your raise hook to see if its torquing when activated. If so, get a new one.
Beyond that, i'll trade you an EMCI for that old '66 John

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 28 Aug 2002 5:15 pm

John your problem reminds me of the time I had a similar problem and found it to be the set screw for the bell crank on the cross rod had worked loose and the bell crank was tring to "spin" on the cross rod. Be sure to check all the set screws and spring tension for that string and make sure they are tight.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 28 Aug 2002 7:50 pm

Well, I've gone through each and every suggestion, and I think I've found the problem.
The forum award for correct diagnosis without ever seeing the patient goes to Jeff Peterson, with cameo appearances by Mike Cass and Jerry Roller. The compression spring on the raise appears to have a busted end. Sometimes the little pointy end rests on the collar, but sometimes it rotates, as Jeff predicted, and it misses the collar, which rests on the next coil behind. Although I haven't remedied it yet, I figure that's gotta be it. I just might have to go to St. Louis this weekend to buy a new spring. (!)
Thanks to everyone who has participated in the Adopt-A-Canuck program. Little by little, you're helping me to understand the underside of this thing.
On the gig tomorrow night, I'm gonna dedicate "It might as well be Spring" to you guys.
-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 28 August 2002 at 08:53 PM.]