B to C# to D change

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 23 Aug 2002 12:44 pm

I know this has been posted previously but I can't find it and need some help. Can I get some insight as to 1. how this change works physically (which KL is best to go C# to D, does it break strings, can I stick it on a KL that already has a change)?
2. What other strings and changes is it used with and should I have another change on that same KL? 3. Is there a particular lick or song where I can hear it? 4. Do I need it on the 10th string? 5. Do the guys who have it, use it much and would it be worth ditching a change that I already have?
I only have one KL going each way on my right leg, is it workable to have more on your volume pedal leg? Thanks for any info.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 23 Aug 2002 12:58 pm

Some guys pull the .036" middle B string on a universal up to C# and D.

But let's assume you are talking about the high B string on E9 tuning, probably .017". I like to pull that up to D. I don't break strings, but the problem is that the C# note is out of tune on many brands of steel guitar.

If you approach it from above, i.e. lowering from D to C#, the pitch can be much higher than if you raise from B to C#.

Only one of my steels (Franklin) is in tune close enough to use this change on a knee lever. I use LKV, and also pull low E (string #12 on extended E9) down to D with the up lever.

On the Zum the pitch difference is "only" about 7 cents. On the Sho-Bud as "improved" by Duane Marrs, it is 23 cents. On the GFI is is also about 20 cents. On those guitars I put the B -> D change on a spare floor pedal, and save the knee levers for pulls that they can make in tune.

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 23 Aug 2002 1:52 pm

As usual, Ernest is right on target. I'm even tempted to say "Ernest Bovine is out-
standing in his field." But seriously, I have found that most steels(not just a few)
suffer from this anomalie. The problem is inherent in the changer mechanism design and is technically not a flaw. I own a Zum and
a Dekley. Both of them handle it pretty
well, but not perfectly. I use the lever a LOT because I threw away my D string. Also I
have found that if you are playing with the pedal down( which raises your B to C#)then engage the B to D lever, then release the lever with the pedal still down, it doesn't return worth a flip! But if you then pump the pedal quickly,one time, everything returns to normal. This is weird and not really a solution, but it can sure help in a bind. I also sometimes use a slight bar slant
to correct the pitch difference, untill I can pump the pedal in the normal course of playing; again, not really a solution, but it helps! I wish it was simply a matter of
lubricating the changer, but it's not.
W.C.

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 23 Aug 2002 2:52 pm

Thanks Earnest & Wayne. However you've raised as many questions as you've answered. Earnest when you say approach it from above, I assume you have some kind of a feel stop on the lever?? Although if it's an up lever, probably not. So are you saying what Wayne is saying that when you go from that D to C# engaging the first pedal, the ensuing C# is out of tune? I was thinking that I might simply want to be in closed position and then wack that KL quickly for a nice hammer on lick. Will this return out of tune on a Zum? How about being in open position and hitting the KL to D for the flat 7th and returning to B, is that B now out of tune?
Wayne, I know what you mean about quickly hitting the pedals to get back in tune, I've had steels that I had to do that for the 4th string if I wanted a perfect E after using the down change.
How else do you use this change? Thanks, Joe

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 23 Aug 2002 3:06 pm

Joe--my experience with the low B on my Carter U-12 is as they describe. Raise B>C# with pedal, no prob. Flick the lever to D, no prob. Release lever back to C#, it stays sharp. But to answer one question, the lever alone, from B>D, returns in tune. String breakage would not have been an issue. However, I had this on the same lever as a much used unrelated change on another string. This was too much and the .036 died several premature deaths. I decided I wasn't using this B>D change enough and I had the D elsewhere so I ditched it.[This message was edited by Jon Light on 23 August 2002 at 04:07 PM.]

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 23 Aug 2002 3:36 pm

Joe, I'm in a hurry, have to go to work, but
basically it goes like this: I threw away the
9th string,moved #10 up to the 9th string position, re-rodded, replaced #10 w/a G#(which is pulled to A along with strings 3&6)
Incidentally, some folks like to put a low E
in #10 position, instead. Then I use B to D
change for everything I would normally use
string #9 for,because the D note is still right where it always was,if you press the lever. Is that as clear as mud? Sorry,gotta
go now.
W.C.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 23 Aug 2002 5:51 pm

Earnest when you say approach it from above, I assume you have some kind of a feel stop on the lever??

No, I mean releasing the lever that raises the 5th string to D while, holding down the pedal that raises it to C#.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 24 Aug 2002 9:50 am

We have had many long discussions on this issue in the Pedal Steel section. Here's a link to one of the longer ones: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/001797.html [This message was edited by Jim Smith on 24 August 2002 at 01:32 PM.]

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 24 Aug 2002 6:38 pm

Thanks guys for all the info. Wayne, that's a pretty clever idea if it works and if you were able to retrain your right hand to get those grips. It must have been a mindf**k for a while.
Jim, I checked that post and it seemed to be more about the E's down change unless I missed it. I'm talking more about a minor third pull and the resulting problems. If anyone has any more thoughts, I'd love to hear them. Thanks, Joe

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 25 Aug 2002 9:53 am

Yes, the other post was about a double lowering problem, but the shaft flex that causes it is the same whether you're raising or lowering.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 25 Aug 2002 7:48 pm

I play a Mullen U-12 (E9/B6) and have a lever that raises the 9th string from B to D. I have read many posts about raising the string from B to C# with the pedal, then raising it from C# to D with a lever and then releasing the lever, only to find the C# now a bit sharp. I don't have this problem on my Mullen. After releasing the lever the C# is right on the money. I guess I'm fortunate.

By the way, I use a .036 GHS Dynamite Alloy (Boomers) in that slot.

------------------
Lee, from South Texas

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 25 Aug 2002 9:42 pm

I'll line up behind Lee on this topic. I play a 1983 Zum U-12. I use a .036 GHS nickel. I've never noticed this problem and just ran through the process using my tuner to be exact. B to C# to D and back to C# comes back on pitch. Zum guitar

Dennis