Honesty dillema

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 2 Jul 2012 8:36 pm

Need advice.

I have a friend that comes to a jam session my band hosts and I think he does great. But to tell the truth, I usually tune out the jammers and just concentrate on what I play.

He gave me a CD he is recording and wants me to critique it and give my opinions and advice. Well, the singing on all 4 songs are off key real bad (possibly beyond pitch corrector help). I don't know how to approach that. I really like the guy and don't want to hurt his feelings. Should I lie and say it sounds good, or chance losing his friendship and hurting his feelings? Everything else musically is OK, except in one song. The song is groovin' right along and drummer felt the need to hit one of those upside down looking Chinese cymbals that go "PANG". It absolutely killed the whole mood of the song. I know I can bring that up, but the singing issue scares me.

I know as a real friend, it shouldn't be an issue to help him out, but I don't know how well he takes constructive criticism.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 3 Jul 2012 12:35 am

It's probably because people have been unwilling to tell him the truth in the past, and have gone for the easy option of praising his singing, that he is now making a CD.

He will be offended, for sure, but it will be for the best to tell him that he's off key, and your integrity will stay intact.

Rich Gardner · Post by **Rich Gardner** » 3 Jul 2012 4:03 am

I agree with Richard. You should tell your friend the truth. It seems to me we have a generation(s) of people who have never heard the truth about their talent. Witness all the talent search shows with people with no talent. YIKES!

RG

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 3 Jul 2012 4:13 am

He asked for your critique, so you can give your critique with tact.

Remind him that a CD is a documentation of music that he'll have to live with forever (or until he dies, whichever comes first) and that vocals are the thing that leaves the strongest impression on a listener.

If he's not a Dylan-esque type singer-songwriter (ala Randy Newman, Tom Waits), tell him that you think the music is deserving of a better vocal effort. Are these original songs? If so, you can use something like this to cushion the blows: "I think your songs really deserve better. Try it again. I'm just telling you what any producer would have told you, because I care."

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 3 Jul 2012 4:22 am

All of the above advice is good, IF the fellow is CAPABLE of singing in tune (have you ever heard him do so?). Otherwise, he will be discouraged, for sure, and you will have sent him on an impossible task. In that case, the only real options might be:

a) take another run at it and try to get close enough for auto-tune

b) if they are original tunes, suggest that another singer sing them for him (I've often said that I'd much prefer hearing almost anyone else sing Dylan than Dylan singing Dylan).

c) convince him that all of the songs would sound really cool in "that talking-blues style"...

d) persuade him that such great melodies should really be done as instrumentals...

e) ...??

p.s. Just don't use the line: "I really like what you were trying to do."

Laurence Pangaro · Post by **Laurence Pangaro** » 3 Jul 2012 6:21 am

I almost always go for the classic "feedback sandwich".

Tell him something good.
Tell him something bad.
Tell him something good.

It is very diplomatic and often gets results. He'll likely be flattered by the positive feedback but want to hear more about the problems.

LP

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 3 Jul 2012 6:52 am

MOST OF THE TIME, when people give you their music to critique, they are really looking for reinforcement, not constructive criticism. If you have to do it, lukewarm, non committal approval, such as "sounds pretty good" stands the best chance of getting you off the hook without too much alienation.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 3 Jul 2012 6:59 am

Thanks a lot guys. I knew deep down that I need to tell him the truth, but I am a whimp and really needed to hear others tell me that it is the best thing to do. Kind of a little push.

Like I said, he comes to the jam session my band hosts and it seems he is on key. The songs he is recording are originals and a totally different rock style than be does at the jam. Plus, I have just messed around at home with him singing and me playing an acoustic guitar, and I never noticed him being off key. Maybe it's just that he can do OK with country/country - rock, but not actual rock. The style is along the lines of Daughtry. I don't think he is trying for the Dylan style.

I'm not sure of the purpose of the CD. I think it may be promo for his band. Not very good to be sending this out to get jobs. I know I did a little home recording project for only me to hear as I don't sing well at all, and I know it, despite what others tell me. But this is with his whole band and I think it is a serious recording.

Well, I have until Sunday to muster up the cohones to tell him.

William Lake · Post by **William Lake** » 3 Jul 2012 7:11 am

I am of two minds about this.
You don't want to be cruel, but if he cannot hear that he is out of tune, how would anything help?
Be non committal as someone else said.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 3 Jul 2012 7:20 am

LOL!I'm glad you mentioned the"china cymbal",Richard!I wish they were all back in their country of origin...and the five-string electric bass with them.

Jeff Garden · Post by **Jeff Garden** » 3 Jul 2012 7:33 am

Also I don't think you were even considering the "safety in numbers" option but I've found any sort of group "intervention" ALWAYS turns into an unpleasant experience for all involved. Have to agree with an old boss who told me to always praise in public, "constructively criticize" in private.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 3 Jul 2012 10:57 am

You don't want to be cruel, but if he cannot hear that he is out of tune, how would anything help?

Great point. He is only an amateur and he knows it. He has no expectations of fame and fortune. Just wants to get out and play locally.

Also I don't think you were even considering the "safety in numbers" option but I've found any sort of group "intervention" ALWAYS turns into an unpleasant experience for all involved.

I'm not too worried about that. He is pretty level headed. I've seen him in a situation that I would have exploded from, and he was calm and cool and walked away. I'm pretty sure he is not violent in any way.

Steve H. Those weird cymbals just drive me up the wall. China doesn't want them back.

Why do you think they sent them over here? We all remember the movie "the China Syndrome", well they could make one about the "China Cymbal" that is equally horrifying.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 3 Jul 2012 12:16 pm

it's best not to make friends with anyone.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 3 Jul 2012 12:28 pm

LOL...you are so right,chris.

Jeff Garden · Post by **Jeff Garden** » 3 Jul 2012 12:32 pm

People cause 95% of the world's problems...avoid them!

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 3 Jul 2012 12:53 pm

its your bud....lie

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 3 Jul 2012 1:17 pm

As a general rule when someone asks me to critique a musical project they were involved in, I try to get out of it saying “No thanks, I really prefer not to” or “I’m not comfortable critiquing someone else’s musical work, I hope you understand” or “I’d be glad to accept a copy from you, but critiquing is not really my thing”.

Last week when I was waiting for the band I was with to perform at The Greeley Stampede, there was some sort of talent contest with girls singing along to pre-recorded music tracks to country songs.
One young girl, Heather – I felt was much better than the rest, she sang close to perfectly on pitch, very relaxed & stayed within her comfort zone, not trying to scream the lyrics to get attention, overall a very nice performance. After she was done I went over and told her pretty much that, and she was so pleased to hear that. She came up to me about 10 minutes later and asked if I had any advice for her and if she should start her own band. It would be off topic to go into the details, but I gave her my advice.
While we were talking they announced the results and she didn’t even make the cut to the next round – I said that’s part of the learning process in this crazy business, don’t worry about it, and although only a teenager she seemed to take it in stride.
I admit I didn’t hear EVERY other contestant, but the ones I did weren’t even close to Heather’s level of expertise – as an example one of them sang Martina McBride’s Broken Wing, most of it a little sharp the entire time except when she really yelled and then was very sharp of pitch and very unpleasant sounding to my ears.
I didn’t go over to any of the other girls who I heard sing, because I had nothing positive to say to them. IF they had asked me, I probably would have said something like “Good job” or I enjoyed the show” simply because I feel it’s the polite thing to do. One of my points is – if you have to ask someone if you did a good job, you’ll almost always get positive feedback because people don’t like confrontation or just choose to be polite, but don’t believe it, because you very rarely get a truly honest response in that situation, but if someone makes a point to find you and communicates how much they liked it without being asked, that’s probably the real thing.

-- Marc

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 4 Jul 2012 10:46 am

Why not push him over the edge. Tell him he has bad breath also. Wear a hockey mask though.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 4 Jul 2012 4:03 pm

Already told him about his breath. Seriously, he chews terbacky.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 4 Jul 2012 6:41 pm

My 'real' friends/musical-associates, upon giving me a rough-mix CD to critique for problems, would expect me to give honest but kind constructive criticism about something as blatant as seriously off-pitch vocals. If I was to BS them about something that was obviously way off, I think they would seriously wonder what was the matter with me.

But I would have to know someone pretty well before I would do this. No matter what, I would definitely point out everything good, as well as any issues I heard.

FWIW, I have friends that do periodically ask me for this kind of input. For the most part, if I could give constructive suggestions for improvement, they were grateful. I would not hesitate to ask a 'real' friend for this kind of feedback if there was something about a project I was working on that I wasn't too sure about. Genuinely, when someone points out something I may be missing, I thank them lavishly for being a 'real' friend and not letting me walk around with my fly open. Glad-handers give me the willies.

Like anything else involving inter-personal relationships, this kind of thing requires sensitivity and good judgment - IMO, only you can decide if you have them in the required quantities.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 4 Jul 2012 7:36 pm

OK Done...

I was talking with him and HE brought up the vocals being off. Whew!! Turned out good. And he hates that china cymbal crash too. It turns out that it is a band project, not just his project, and the china cymbal has to stay because the drummer likes it.

Anyway, it is over and no one got hurt.

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 4 Jul 2012 8:02 pm

Good.A bullet dodged,and an opportunity to think about how to deflect the next one.Chances are when someone's performance is a little off,he knows it,and is trying both to check his own ability to assess as well as ways to make it better.In this case,I think we're all in agreement that pitch is....key.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 5 Jul 2012 9:21 am

I think the best advice I heard here was to not accept the offer to evaluate someone's CD and I will adopt that policy.

Thanks a bunch guys. This place is a blessing for
sure.

Oh, forgot to mention. They have a small porta-studio they used and don't have a pitch corrector. I suggested he make music only tracks from the recordings, and practice getting his pitch in check.

kyle reid · Post by **kyle reid** » 7 Jul 2012 8:03 am

Be Diplomatic! Tell him to get a paper route!

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 7 Jul 2012 8:35 am

Don't be a Simon, use the Randy Jackson approach. Tell him the truth but don't crush his dream. I mean even Billy Ray hit it once.

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Honesty dillema

Honesty dillema

Proper advice!