Tritone subs...John Steele/Jeff Lampert

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Aug 2002 9:32 am

You gotta stop mis-spelling them chords, man. Every time you do that, I end up re-rodding my D-10

Next time, just re-rod the C6 neck. It'll save you some time.

Rich Sullivan · Post by **Rich Sullivan** » 9 Aug 2002 2:28 am

If the lead player is using altered and substitute chords, should the rhythm section be playing the same changes, or does it sound good if they are playing the basic changes?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Aug 2002 5:21 am

Rich,
There's not a generic answer to your question. It kinda depends on the situation.

The best answer is: If the lead player knows what the band is gonna play and crafts his/her playing to fit, it will sound ok. Obviously, it is best if the bass player and rhythm or keyboard player know what the lead player plans to do and they do the same (or something complementary).

For example, if the band is playing a straight C or C7 chord and you're playing C7b9, there may not be any 'tone clashes' -- other than the ones that are intended (the 7b9 chord has a C and C#, but that's what gives the chord its flavor). It is best to keep the 'clash notes' an octave apart, so problems may arise if you voice the C# low and the bass player is playing a C. It may sound cool, though, depending on the context of the song.

Or if the band is playing C6 or C7 (or even C9) and you play C13, it should be ok since both those chords are included.

Two principles:
If you are altering or extending a chord by adding notes nobody is already playing, you're probably ok.
If you substitute with chords built off the same scale you are probably ok. Like, if the band is playing D7 resolving to G and you play (Am7/D7/) G

Just some thoughts.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 09 August 2002 at 06:24 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 9 Aug 2002 8:14 am

It will sound a lot better, if you play different changes than the rhythm section. Use LB's example. The song goes from D7 to G, one 4/4 measure each. You decide to play an Am7 for the first 2 beats. It will sound cool. If instead, everyone plays the Am7, it won't sound so cool. It'll just sound like an Am7.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 9 Aug 2002 8:28 am

... and to carry Jeff's point one step further, the reason it sounds cool to play your Am7 over their D7, is because when you add these two chords together, you get a D9sus chord (=D, F#, A, C, E, G) and that suspended 4th note, G, will resolve down to the F# of your D7 when you get to it (thereby making your audience go, "Aaah! He does know what's going on here!") . At least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 09 August 2002 at 09:32 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 9 Aug 2002 8:51 am

Oh, and by the way, if you want to get mpore interesting, when the progression is D7 to G, one 4/4 measure each, play Am7 for two beats, AND Ab7 (tri-tone sub!!) for the next two beats, then end on a Gmaj7. Now, the D7/G progression has been replaced by a way cooler Am7/Ab7/Gmaj7 progression.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 12 Aug 2002 6:01 am

Jeff L...

I have been surprised at the response to this subject. I "messed around" with your last post: Am7, Ab7, GM7. If you get the Am7 with "P6" and raise the A to Bb, you can start with that at fret 9, back up one fret and let off the pedal for Ab7, and fret 7 for however you get Gm7. Cool. I still raise the A's to B and don't know why so many have dropped that change. I suppose it is a matter of preference w/o having more pedals.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 12 Aug 2002 9:25 am

and fret 7 for however you get Gm7

Use pedal 7 for the Gmaj7 chord. The Ab7 at the 8th fret has string 4 raised 1/2 tone to F#, and the Gmaj7 has the 4th string raised a full-tone using pedal 7 to the same F# note. It sounds very nice.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 12 Aug 2002 10:11 am

I still raise the A's to B and don't know why so many have dropped that change

Many players have dropped this change, which is the standard pedal 4, because it is largely redundant. Whereas every other pedal or knee lever gives you notes that are not otherwise available at the fret, the raising of the A to B (pedal 4) is also done on pedal 7. Also, the standard C6 knee lever lowers the 3rd string to a B, so there are actually THREE ways to get a B note. That's the main reason it's not used. Of course, the pedal is not without it's charms. It creates dissonance with strings 3 and 7 on several chord forms (Major 7, 13th, etc.). You can hold the 3rd string stationary while you move notes underneath. And it gives you a whole tone move, so that you can mimic some country licks. But as a whole, it offers less than the other pedals.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 12 Aug 2002 2:19 pm

Jeff L.

I sent this earlier but somehow it didn't show up. Regarding the Am6, A7, GM7:

I "messed around" with your last post on this. If you use the Am7 on fret 9 with "P6" and the A to Bb raise, then back off to fret 8 and let off P6, then use whatever M7 you get at fret 7. All right together:9/8/7.

I still raise the A's to B and don't understand why so many have dropped that change ("P4"). I guess most don't want more than the standard 8 floor pedals, so they substitute something else.

A long time ago, someone posted that several who ordered Franklins were going to put Pauls six string C6 change on P4. They dropped the idea when they found out it wasn't a "lick" pedal.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 Aug 2002 1:46 pm

There are other examples as well, but it helps to have those extra knees, at least IMO. BTW, that chord is a key part of My Funny Valentine (key of Eb/Cm), and Days Of Wine And Roses (key of F)

I'm embarrassed to say, but I just realized that a well known use of the 7b5b9 is in "Girl From Ipanema", a song many steel players perform. I wish I hadn't taken this long to think of it, but anyway, it's a good, familiar reference point for the use of that chord. If "Girl From Ipanema" is played in the key of F, the D7b5b9 appears on the word "sea" as in "each day when she walks to the sea", and a C7b5b9 appears on the next line in the same spot. This D7b5b9 chord is played on the C6 tuning, with the melody at the top, at fret 9, strings 3,4,5,6, pedals 5,6, and lower string 3. The C7b5b9 is at the 7th fret.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 15 Aug 2002 4:52 pm

Jeff, re 7b5b9:

The 7th string is the root. Do you usually leave it out? I'd like to hear from you on my last response above also.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 15 Aug 2002 4:53 pm

Jeff, re 7b5b9:

The 7th string is the root. Do you usually leave it out? I'd like to hear from you on my last response above also.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 Aug 2002 7:05 pm

I'd like to hear from you on my last response above

Bob G.,
If you're asking about Paul Franklin's 6-pull pedal, I don't know how he uses it. I'd have to study it, which I haven't done, to get some idea, and even then, I don't know if I would see the purpose.

The 7th string is the root. Do you usually leave it out?

The D7b5b9 played at fret 9 with pedals 5,6 and lowering the 3rd string, would have no low root. It has a high root on string 2. It isn't necesasry to play the root to capture the essence of the chord. If you need a bass root, play it at the 12th fret, with pedals 5,6, and lower the 4th string. The 10th string is the root.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Aug 2002 11:19 pm

Jeff,
Paul's 6th pedal brings his steel into the middle D tuning. A pentatonic scale straight across the neck starting on the 9th string. Great for scale work and quartal harmony.

Bob

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 16 Aug 2002 4:18 am

Bob,
According the b0b's tuning chart, Paul Franklin has a pedal 5 on his C6 that raises his middle C to a D, middle A to a C, and F to an A. I think this is the pedal that you are describing. The one I thought that Bob G. was referring to was the pedal 4, which has 6 different pulls on it, some raising strings, and some lowering strings. That is one odd looking pedal.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 16 August 2002 at 05:57 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 16 Aug 2002 4:56 am

Bob G.,
The 7b5b9 voicing in "Ipanema" is the one you mentioned early on in this thread!