In a Rut

Kirk P Dighton · Post by **Kirk P Dighton** » 6 Aug 2002 7:49 am

I know that this has been a topic before but....here it is again. I hosted a jam last weekend with 5 steel players in my garage. Man, what a great time and to hear 4-5 different interpretations on licks are great to learn from. After a couple of years of playing, I feel that I am stuck in a rut as far as the right hand technique. I try different positions and techniques but I just can't seem to find the right hand touch that I am looking for. It almost feels like it is a struggle between the volume pedal and the right hand striking the strings to get the volume yet maintain the tone. I read Jeff's column on "Tone Be or Not Tone Be", and he relates that it is not in the amp or the guitar but all in the right hand. What did you experienced players do to find the right touch? Techniques, courses, TopGun school (I am considering it seriously) I am stuck in a rut. Any ideas? Thanks. Kirk

Don Townsend · Post by **Don Townsend** » 6 Aug 2002 8:03 am

Check out Joe Wright's courses.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Aug 2002 8:13 am

If it were all in the hands, we'd see all the pro's playing Supros through Fender Champs!

Yes, a lot of it is in the hands, but a large part of "that sound" is in the amp system, and a somewhat less amount in the guitar itself. I must admit, though, that I get very confused about this "tone thing" everyone brings up. How many pro's out there really have a "bad" tone? They all use different equipment, don't they? This makes me think that most players who talk "tone" are confusing tone with playing smoothness (bar technique), phrasing (note choice and timing) and volume pedal manipulation skills.

Beginners and pro's alike produce the same sounds, or "tones". But the pro is obvious by way of his execution skills. These skills aren't TONE, dammit! They are a fluid, exact, method of playing, in exact time, in exact tune, and playing the "right stuff", with the proper vibrato, note choice, etc..

Kirk has the right idea...it's playing skill (with the right hand, volume pedal, right amp, right guitar, etc.) that's lacking in most beginning (less than 10 years experience) players, and not "tone".

Sorry for the rant.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 6 Aug 2002 8:55 am

players who talk "tone" are confusing tone with playing smoothness (bar technique), phrasing (note choice and timing) and volume pedal manipulation skills

Brilliant as usual, Donny. And right hand technique is the most critical. Kirk, you can learn alot from videos, but having a good teacher is the best way to improve your techniques. For consistency, take your foot off the volume pedal (I play more with it off the pedal than on) and work on making every chord group and single note equal in volume.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 6 Aug 2002 1:38 pm

As an old timer, I fully realize that my views are no longer among the majority of todays' younger players, HOWEVER........if considered and tried, it's possible, my suggestion might prove to have some meaningful playing value to YOU.

I'd suggest you go down to some local music store or pawn shoppe, find the most expensive steel on the floor, and several of their junky trade-ins. Forget brand names..........this is not a status quest.

Regardless of the amp or pack-set selected, forgetting the newness or quality of strings thereon, ignoring the price of the guitar, etc... play each of the guitars using the same picks and bar.... for about 5 minutes each, in sequence. Start by just dropping your right hand on the strings where ever it might fall. Forget for a moment what Jeff Newman, B.Emmons or anyone else has stated. This YOUR TIME to discover the truth for YOURSELF. LISTEN to the TONE or lack thereof that you generate when picking a short tune. Then in a systematic fashion, place your right hand as far to the right end as possible. Play the same musical phrases as before and repeat this over and over again, while steadily moving your right hand toward the left or down the neck following each repititious phrase played. NEVER pick below the 5th fret....., okay?
Even the truly, no talent, dumbest person on earth, will be able to find "ONE SPOT" along that neck....that produces a fuller, richer TONAL QUALITY about it. Each guitar will likely present "THAT SPOT" in a slightly different location along the neck. Once you've found "that spot"...you can go another step and determine if it's ever going to sound any better with newer strings, different colored picks, knife, beer bottle, plastic, wood, flat or rounded stainless steel bar.
At this point....having discovered "the spot".....you need to place the fingers of your left hand firmly on the strings, close to the bar and with a moderate amount of naturally flowing vibrato.
If it still sound likes crap, put it aside. Otherwise, you've likely discovered the best of the guitar itself. If that's what you're looking for, you've got it made.
Otherwise keep looking.
Good Luck to you!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 6 Aug 2002 4:51 pm

I second what Donny said, Kirk, this is not a "two year" instrument (It's one of the things that bonds us in spite of our differences). The fact that you've noticed that you are in a rut is an encouraging sign and it means that you're ready to move up a "notch", but it's practice, practice and more practice. Like Don said, you might check out Joe Wright's Technique Bundle.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 6 Aug 2002 6:00 pm

GO DONNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Ray
And Chas.....

Bill

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Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 6 Aug 2002 6:06 pm

Kirk....fear not! It's just rutting season! It's like a menstrual cycle. Fortunately I still get them at my age. When they stop, I'll hang it up.
Bend the picks at 90 degress, stick out your pinky and hang on.
Dennis

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 6 Aug 2002 6:15 pm

Kirk, Part of it is in your head. I was there the other night and you had some good tones going. You sounded more unsure than anything else. To me the tones come from the guitar and the amp, but a big part is from the heart. How else could Tommy White, Buddy Emmons, or any of the other greats sit down and there is their tone. You have a good rig and that's part of the battle. Just keep at it. It will work itself out.

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1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 6 Aug 2002 7:28 pm

I also agree with Donny. Beginners are concerned about getting "that tone", that's natural and concern for good tone is a good trait but good tone will develop with more skill. Even if a person had everything right for perfect tone he probably wouldn't recognize it, since if he was a beginner and didn't have the smoothness of technique he'd likely mistake that for lack of tone. The smoothness of the great players makes their tone really stand out, but if they played like very raw beginners probably no one would say "but what great tone..." Plus, as you progress you do also learn more about how to improve the tone in "your hands" as they say. Bottom line, just keep practicing and working for it, the smoothness will come, and the tone along with it. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 06 August 2002 at 08:32 PM.]

Kevin Macneil Brown · Post by **Kevin Macneil Brown** » 8 Aug 2002 6:50 am

Perhaps this is a dangerous thing I'm about to say, but could it be that, at the heart of things, our TONE as players- and I don't neccesarily mean timbre- is the combination of all the things that make our playing recognizable as our own?
Perhaps it's like our voice: it comes from each of us, and each of us alone.
That said, there's no reason we can't emulate, modulate; whatever..And while what we're hearing in our head, the ideal sound we're going for, may not be quite what we actually put out into the air, we might just find out that our TONE is shaping up exactly as it should.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 8 Aug 2002 7:37 am

...stick out your pinky...

I used to be a 'pinky sticker' and now I'm a 'pinky curler'. I much prefer this way. Works great for pick blocking and palm blocking. There are great players that play each way; my point is that, for beginning and intermediate players this shouldn't be a goal.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 8 Aug 2002 7:46 am

One of my all-time favorite quotes about "tone" comes from Randy Beavers who posted right here on the Forum a while back:

"Tone is what happens when you have your technique together enough that your soul comes through."

I just love that!

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The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 8 Aug 2002 8:13 am

I really like what Donny said too. The pros all tell us that this elusive, undefinable thing called "tone" is what separates the mediocre & top players... but most of us newer players have enough to do simply to execute runs and notes correctly. "Tone" comes with time.

Kirk P Dighton · Post by **Kirk P Dighton** » 8 Aug 2002 10:14 am

Thanks for all of the great advice. Their are a lot of opinions out there on how, when and why to play this thing. I am definately back in the sadlle and diggin' in. Thanks again for your opinions. Kirk

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 8 Aug 2002 1:51 pm

Hi Michael...I was a curler for about 10 years and (for me) I couldn't seem to get the palm muting clean or quickly enough. After being hooked up with a fiddle player for a year I forced myself to try pinky out and bending the picks a little more. It resulted in my palm being flatter to the strings and fingers curled a little more. And my muting was much guicker and cleaner. Getting the pinky to relax was the tough part.
I agree, that both will work. I think both methods should be tried at some point.
Kirk...I thought you and Mark sounded great last weekend. You're ahead of schedule after two years. A little frustration is good. I think all of us on here get frustrated with our picking. Otherwise you'd see some of us kissing our hands between songs

Dennis

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 9 Aug 2002 8:23 am

Ray, you are right on about right hand position in regards to timbre. I know this more from flat picking an acoustic guitar than anything. It is so important to know where to pick. If ya want to sit in the rythym and sound a little trebley, just stay close to the bridge, if you want to sound fat and indistinct, play up the neck.

Not sure if this will help, but when I feel like I am in a rut w/ any of my instruments, I actively seek out jam sessions w/ different types of music that I dont usually play. I know most of you guys think there are only 2 types of music(country and western), but it never hurts to expand your horizon. If I get in a rut playing dixieland on clarinet, I bring my clarinet to play w/ a spacerock group that I am in. If my PSG solos get stale on a country sounding tune, I spend the day in the studio working the PSG into a heavier/weirder sounding song. Either way, placing a certain instrument into a different context/genre always has helpen me get out of a rut. Good luck!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

R. L. Jones · Post by **R. L. Jones** » 11 Aug 2002 7:05 pm

I find on my Benoit, accoustic steel, strings , sometime changes the tone ,. I would think that strings do make a difference inthe tone of any guitar

R. L. Jones

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 12 Aug 2002 3:19 pm

In my later adult life, there was no one to teach what I wanted to learn (I went to Marsden Conservatory in my childhood)--- so I invented a way. Find what works for you and stick it out. -- Hugh www.steelguitarbyhughjeffreys.com

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 13 Aug 2002 3:06 pm

I like that Randy Beavers saying. Couldn't be better than that. He proves it when he plays too. If it's only been two years you ain't in no rut yet, just still looking for that sound. You might be looking for that sound twenty years from now and sounding great. I think all the greats are still looking for that sound.

Kirk P Dighton · Post by **Kirk P Dighton** » 14 Aug 2002 8:28 am

Taking Michael's advice and taking the foot off of the volume pedal for now. Makes a heck of a difference in "needing" to mute and adjust picking strength on rides. A whole new ballgame...good thing it's early innings. Thanks for all of the views and opinions. Kirk

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 15 Aug 2002 7:37 am

I went to Newman's Top Gun school and it's the best money I ever spent. There are a lot of good teachers and players on here and I respect all of them. I'm new to the steel, I'm a 40 yr. 6 stringer and not a very good one I might add. Anyway I believe that Jeff has got me to a place that I could have never reached on my own. I agree that tone comes from some equipment etc. I think that it all starts with your hands and goes from there, or I think it builds from there. Your hand is your foundation you can't build without a solid foundation. NEWMAN CAN BUILD THE FOUNDATION

IMHO NEWMAN RULES STEEL GUITAR

Jeff

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 15 Aug 2002 7:43 am

I went back and read Ray's post. That makes the most sense of anything I've ever heard amongst us common folk.

Way to go Ray.

Jeff

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 15 Aug 2002 9:02 am

Great post!!! Right on Randy Beavers , Ray Montee, and all!

Everything I've ever read about the mechanics of learning have always made the intelligence/music correlation. It seems like we musicians (on all levels) have tapped into a not so secret way to not only to learn to play an instrument, but how to LEARN to LEARN. Ruts are natural & good. Learning how to overcome them is what builds, in our case, musical charachter.

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 15 Aug 2002 8:45 pm

I have four songs I play two or three times whenever I set down at my steel. I work on landing right on the fret, rolling my bar and getting a clean pick sound. It helps me a lot because I can hear the differance as that TONE thing gets better. A long way to go but it's coming. Try playing one or two songs over and over and see if it works for you.

Bob.