Something Tut Said

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 5 Aug 2002 8:40 pm

Personally, I think the color of the guitar is more important than the brand...

("Incoming!")

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 5 Aug 2002 10:31 pm

Now this is more of the dialoge that I would have hoped to see come from this post-Jim you certainly have owned enough guitars to form an opinion-many of the instuments you owned I have also owned same or similiar-You say your words were not of personal offense-so I won't take any then-lets just say that we choose to disagree-we have all heard the saying about what part of the human anatomy opinions are like-that everybody has one-well I guess you have heard mine and vice-versa

And Jim Cohen-I agree with you about the color being a factor-even if there is no scientific basis to confirm some thing cosmetic like that could be of effect

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 10:57 pm

I hate to say it but my black MSA really did sound better than the rosewood mica one...

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 5 Aug 2002 10:58 pm

Now just think fellows, a hundred years from now, you guys won't even remember talking about this, haha.

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

Gary Morrison · Post by **Gary Morrison** » 6 Aug 2002 4:29 am

Jim, you're right. The color is more important. What's best, Heinz red or green?

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 6 Aug 2002 7:37 pm

If there is no standard by which manufactures measure their guitars, how come they all refer to one particular brand (always the same one)when telling you how great their guitar sounds? One of the most renowned great builders of this day and time ownes three of these guitars to use as a comparison measurment for his finely built instruments, and has for the last 25 years.I can actually think of several builders that use this particular guitar for their standard for tone and overall excellence. No wonder most players that can hear do too!
Bobbe

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 6 Aug 2002 7:47 pm

yeah--but Bobbe...

Everything food-wise taste like chicken and airplanes fly like a "Skyhawk"...they may be bench marks but they are not really the best?

Chicken eatinly,

Tom

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 6 Aug 2002 8:25 pm

Which do you prefer apples or springtime?

Different guitars are . . . um . . . different -- and different players have . . . um . . . different taste and criteria. That's why some will listen to an Emmons push-pull and not particularly like it. Most I've talked to will. From a mfgr's point of view, however, a mark to shoot at is one that's pretty widely (altho not UNIVERSALLY) accepted as good or great. You're never gonna get 10 steel players to all choose the same brand as their favorite, but when the majority say there is something about the sound of an Emmons that is distinctive and desirable, the manufacturers listen. If someone could build an all-pull guitar with a push-pull sound they could name their price. God knows many have tried.

Just my observation -- and my opinion -- I COULD be wrong.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 06 August 2002 at 09:26 PM.]

John P. Phillips · Post by **John P. Phillips** » 6 Aug 2002 8:41 pm

Hey guys, I've got an opinion too. But maturity has taught me to keep it to myself (HEHEHE)

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"Let's go STEEL something"
If it feels good, do it. If it feels COUNTRY, do it twice
jpp

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 7 Aug 2002 4:43 am

Me too, John. But this is certainly good reading and informative as well !!

Regards, Paul

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Aug 2002 8:19 am

Is it not possible that Buddy's fame as one of if not the best steel players in the world has had a lot to do the the popularity of the Emmons guitar, helping to promote the idea that it's the best guitar; which, whether it really is or not, as Chas has suggested, this "legend" gets passed down through the years and has now become accepted as "fact" simply because enough people have come to believe it? So the hype says it's the best, and whether it is or not if that is its' believed position in the heap then of course the other manufacturers know what people believe (true or not) and have to compete by comparing themselves with it. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 August 2002 at 09:32 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Aug 2002 8:28 am

Besides....Bobbe, I haven't been around as long as you have and admittedly don't have the knowledge of steels and music history you have, but -- when you speak of "why do the other manufacturers all refer to the one brand....", you are speaking of the more recent builders, correct? I don't remember anything about Sho-Bud or ZB ever advertising anything about "it sounds like an Emmons!" and they are pretty well-known for tone. Maybe part of the reason the new guys compare with Emmons is because Emmons is pretty much the only really established steel manufacturer still around to compete with, as far as new steel sales go.

Makes me think of motorcycles.... (now there's a segue, eh?) In the 70's all the critics blasted Harley Davidson saying all the Japanese bikes were faster, lighter, smoother, more reliable etc. and they were right. Guess who's on top of the motorcycle heap for several years now, Harley Davidson. Still slower, heavier and needing more maintenance than the Japanese bikes, but legendary and all the Japanese bikes now are trying to look like a Harley. Does that mean the Harleys are better? No. Legendary and unique, yes. (And they sound better too but that's beside the point!) [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 August 2002 at 10:04 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Aug 2002 11:31 am

Huh? Talk about apples and oranges!
I can't believe that folks think that the fame of the Emmons sound has something to do with Buddy's fame as a player. I know several people that like the guitar that don't like Buddy or me. The guitar won on it's own merits, not because of who's name is on the front. I know many other great players that took the Emmons name off the front of the guitar and put another brand name on just because they were mad at the company but couldn't stand to give up the great sounding guitar. The guitar, famous just because of Buddy ? How can this be when he didn't even play an Emmons steel at several different times during this guitars(and his) career. No, this guitar stands on it's own, regardless of the company problems,delivery problems,endorsment problems and the fact that some players are not adept mechanically enough to learn how to tune it, (which is very easy to tune). This guitar is still the one that is most used for comparison by the most discriminating builders and players. Anyone that dosn't know this is not in touch with reality. However, reality may not be all it's cracked up to be either! I always say, "Reality is for people that can't face drugs".
Don't get me wrong, a lot of folks think this is the only guitar in the world I like! Wrong, I like several guitars. ZB is among them, if properly adjusted. And true, there are a few guitars that I just plain can't stand the sound of. If I can't get a good rich, clear,warm tone with nice color, I'd rather not play. I'm in total understandment of those that don't care about tone or know what it is, that's OK too, If they can live with it and make money with it, they are better off than me because they have a lot more choice's of stuff to buy than I do! I'm too picky,not everything will work for my taste.
I don't care what anyone else likes or buys and plays, we are all different folks with different tastes, this is good,and if your not getting a good tone, it will just make me sound better!!!!! ( Ha! Ha!) And I can use all of this I can get!
I'm not telling anyone what is good or bad, what to buy or not to buy, I'm just stating MY PERSONAL opinions.
Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Aug 2002 11:43 am

One more thing, Buddy Emmons is without a doubt one of the , if not the greatest players that has ever been, no question, but there are many other great players also, Maurice, Chalker,to name a couple but thanks to Buddy, the great push pull Emmons Guitar truly got a great "kick-off" in popularity because of him. But once it was accepted by many other discriminating players, nothing could stop it's ever enduring place in the hearts of most of the greatest professional players. Buddy Emmons? Yes, he helped it get started and was very "instrumental" in it's development, and promotion. But if this guitar would sound bad, not even he could have saved it among the pros.
I'm glad this guitar is in our midst now. I wish more could be made. I wish the prices wern't getting so high on them, I wish a lot of things but I'll just play one and watch and listen.
And thank you Buddy!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 7 Aug 2002 11:43 am

As I recall, there was a photo of a well known player playing an Emmons with an upside down decal on the front, Ship In Distress.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Aug 2002 11:46 am

Paul W., I agree with your opening statement, wholeheartedly!
Bobbe

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Aug 2002 11:51 am

Aw heck! [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 August 2002 at 01:10 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Aug 2002 11:52 am

![This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 August 2002 at 01:07 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Aug 2002 12:28 pm

Buddy Emmons? Yes, he helped it get started and was very "instrumental" in it's development, and promotion. But if this guitar would sound bad, not even he could have saved it among the pros.

If it had sounded bad, he wouldn't have played it -- regardless of WHOSE name was on it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Aug 2002 12:53 pm

Nobody said the Emmons didn't sound great and wasn't a great instrument. My position in this whole thing has only been, is it proven fact that it's so much better than all the rest that it can stated "there's Emmons and then there's the rest", which states pretty flatly that Emmons is the only one that's really any good? That's what I don't agree with.

I guess the only question I have left is, if Emmons really IS the very best, why don't ALL the pros play it? We all know how many great players don't or didn't. If it's so far and away superior to all others, are we to believe great players who play(ed) something other than Emmons are or were dummies? Run down a list of the all-time greatest steel players -- They didn't all play Emmons and I can't believe that the non-Emmons players are (or were) dummies who don't know they're playing inferior instruments. It only makes sense to conclude that Emmons is a great steel but not the only one.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 August 2002 at 02:36 PM.]

Post by **b0b** » 7 Aug 2002 1:49 pm

Duh!

Please keep it civil, folks. I'm out of town and can't monitor everything this week.

That said, I think that my Williams sounds as good as any guitar of any brand I've ever heard.

Part of being a "standard" by which others are measure has to do with how many of a brand are manufactured. Many people have heard an Emmmons. Many players have played an Emmons. A Fessy or a Williams will never be a "standard", simply because there aren't that many of them in circulation.

EBay is the "standard" by which online auction sites are judged. Someone could make a better auction site (I'm sure it's been done), but it would inevitably be compared with EBay. That's just one example.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/coolb0b2.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
-System Administrator

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Aug 2002 1:49 pm

Who is to say what is best? I feel there are different guitars for different perposes. I love Emmons as I stated but I also love a few others, Emmons is not the "only" guitar for every reason. It sure covers a lot of territory though. Many good guitars. It's how you play them that really counts. Buddy also proved that! (along with others) Wish I had another Bigsby!!

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Aug 2002 2:08 pm

Hey bOb, don't worry, I'll watch your forum while your gone!!! (oh no, not me!)
Bobbe!!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Aug 2002 3:27 pm

b0b,
You in real trubble now, boy.

BTW, I wasn't aware this discussion revolved around what is BEST. That's pretty subjective. The STANDARD against which others are measured is a different thing. I would think of that as a known commodity of high quality that many people are familiar with. I think the Emmons brand and the push-pull design in particular qualify. But that's just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 August 2002 at 06:58 PM.]

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 7 Aug 2002 3:59 pm

I feel Gibson set the standard when they put the adjusting rod in the neck.

My old friend Nolan Harrison who has spent a life time (he's even older than me by quite a few years)in the muisc bussiness agrees with that.

He said they had many Martin Guitars they had to send back to the factory to get the necks repaired. And they were to stuburn to admit Gibson had better neck.

After Martin did put an adjusting rod in the neck, and Gene Autry wanted a bigger guitar,and they built the D 45 for him, then Martin took the number spot.

I had a Gibson J 45 when I was a young man and it was a fine guitar. Like George Strait sings, "Wish I Had That One Back".

Bob.