Something Tut Said

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 4 Aug 2002 9:42 pm

Some years ago I was at the Nashville Vintage Guitar Show where I had a dealer's booth with some friends-I had gotten around to the display of instruments by Tut Taylor (with whom I had done business before) and the conversation got to banjos and mandolins-it was then that Tut said that when it came to those instruments that there were "GIBSONS" and "Everything Else" And with what little I know about and can play on those instruments I had to agree that Gibson is the "Standard By Which Others Are Judged"-But it seems to me that the same axiom can be applied to the pedal steel-"EMMONS" and "Everything Else"

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 4 Aug 2002 10:10 pm

In the world of ketchup, there is Heinz and then there is nothing else! Now in push/pull and all pull flavors.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 4 Aug 2002 10:14 pm

Well also, name recognition goes a long way, Starbucks isn't the only coffee shop...

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 4 Aug 2002 10:26 pm

ANY product that is "what all others are judged by" doesn't mean that another product can't be judged superior. [This message was edited by Roger Crawford on 04 August 2002 at 11:29 PM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Aug 2002 5:45 am

Sure, just like with flattops; there's Martins and 'everything else'.
There are some (quite a few, actually) questionable Martins but even the best Taylor or Collings can't match a good Martin. Even there, there are two HD-28s hanging on the wall at the Arvada Pickin' Parlor and one is noticably cleaner sounding than the other.
In the case of 'the instrument not to be named', my '79 Scruggs Mastertone really is a master tone. However, I've had neck problems w/it twice in 3 years. The adjustment rod was not installed correctly. Also, the new ones sound like ****.
Deering and Stelling both make some high quality instruments with good tone but again, can't compete w/ a GOOD Gibson.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 5 Aug 2002 6:08 am

Any banjo fanatic can tell you that there were "Golden Years" for Gibson Banjos and other years that were rather bad.

Same goes for most instruments.

I guess it helps to have a baseline when making comparisons. That baseline does not have to be an excellent instrument, just one that was recorded a lot, so people will know the sound you're talking about.

Wayne Brown · Post by **Wayne Brown** » 5 Aug 2002 7:58 am

here we go again

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 5 Aug 2002 8:43 am

Mike W-I agree with you-when it comes to Ketchup(or do you say catsup)-I use Heinz or none at all!

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 9:36 am

I hate to inject negativity into any thread in the Forum, we all know negativity usually gets "flamed", people don't like negative responces, myself included....on the other hand, this thread is supremely stupid...so, I wonder what the public finds more offensive, negativity or stupidity? Probably negativity, as it's obvious a good many people find stupidity very agreeable and even take time to write it and post it. Who doesn't know Emmons is a great instrument? Whining "My brand is the best....." 6th-grade crap! I've lost count of the bands I've heard with all the finest equipment who can't get a tone to save their lives, and then once in a great while you find someone with garbage for equipment getting the sweetest tone you've ever heard. Of all the steel players (and steel OWNERS who think they're players) I've met, the ones doing the loudest bragging about how their guitars and amps are the very best are always the ones who have the least experience, the least musical knowledge, the least talent and the worst tones, and they have NO idea! If having an Emmons makes it easier to imagine you're BE, fine, enjoy yourself. If you want to be a musician, get off the "my brand is best" crap and just PRACTICE.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 5 Aug 2002 10:32 am

....on the other hand, this thread is supremely stupid...so, I wonder what the public finds more offensive, negativity or stupidity?

Jim, I disagree. This thread is more about how values, standards and myths come to be and are set. More often than not by popularity. Typically, if enough people believe something, then it becomes true. Witness all of the religeons in the world and their proselytizers, recruiting believers.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 11:31 am

Chas, "This thread is more about how values, standards and myths come to be and are set."

The references to Heinz might qualify that assessement but I don't believe the original post and several others were made in the interest of the origin of myths and legends.

"Typically, if enough people believe something, then it becomes true." I'm sure you didn't mean this literally. Even so, aside from the fact that the original subject was the "best" steel guitar and that's subject to opinion more than anything else, but in my book it doesn't matter how many people believe a lie, it's still a lie. Modern Politically Correct thinking may say that "There's no right or wrong, the truth is whatever's true for you, find your own truth", that's total BS in just about every way EXCEPT perhaps in the original topic here. The best steel guitar is whatever that player likes most at that moment. The great players would still be great on the worst guitar, the lousy players are going to be lousy on anything.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Aug 2002 11:33 am

What do you mean, total B.S.? Oh, I see, I thought you were refering to me! Actually Jim, I see what you are saying very clearly, I like it!
Bobbe,

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 12:31 pm

Bobbe! Nope, not referring to you, not this time...

You're a good example of my point though. Everyone knows you're a BIG Emmons guy but you also make gorgeous music on Sho-Bud and probably anything else you'd sit at. I'm not saying the Emmons isn't great. I just have a big problem with "gearheads" putting a brand or type of instrument ahead of everything else. Do Jerry Byrd or Lloyd Green need an Emmons to give people chills with their playing and gorgeous tone? No, and if we all have an Emmons will we all sound like BE? No! If Buddy walked in to your gig, what do you think would impress him; just because you're playing an Emmons, or playing a who-knows-what and playing the heck out of it? There's so much flap about old Sho-Buds, ZB's, Emmons, I love all these guitars too but I still take issue with the guys who say any instrument's the best and think they'll sound like Lloyd or Buddy just because of their guitar's name or age.

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 5 Aug 2002 1:44 pm

Jim P-I have no problem with you injecting something negative to the thread-you can say that what I posted is "Supremely Stupid" and you can even call me "Gearhead" HA HA-thats I new one on me

Thats far less offensive than what I have been called by many jerks that I have delt with in 22 years on the police dept-but there is no one like that here

Hey-the First Amendment applies here-you may or may not agree with me or what Tut said to me-but just let me say having owned dozens of Emmons and Sho-bud and another dozen or more of other makes-I keep coming back to the Emmons-and it is not because it makes me play or sound like any particular famous steel playing hero of mine-its because I have found the instument that has taken me to another level of my ability to play it-I knew that there might be some who take offense to this thread and I really wasn't intending to sound like a sixth-grader-whatever works for you Jim is surely the best in your viewpoint and I am not trying to change it-pass the Heinz please

[This message was edited by PAUL WARNIK on 05 August 2002 at 02:47 PM.]

Dennis Manuel · Post by **Dennis Manuel** » 5 Aug 2002 1:53 pm

I find it amazing that some one has a problem with people having an opinion about certain guitars, etc., however, has no problem with the opinion he has formed regarding the people he is slamming.

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 5 Aug 2002 2:07 pm

Dennis M-you are very honorable to post that in defense of my thread in spite of Jim P's attack on me-after all I can't get tone "To Save My Life" and have the least musical knowledge and talent of anyone

I gotta go practice now

[This message was edited by PAUL WARNIK on 05 August 2002 at 03:40 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 2:44 pm

Ooh, so now I've "attacked" someone! So I have no right to say I find your opinion childish and inaccurate, that's an "attack"?

Yes Paul, you are welcome to your opinion and so am I. You have every right to post that you think "Emmons is the best", just as I have every right to post that to me it seems about the same level as "My dad's Chevy can beat your dad's Ford".

I would agree with you that having the right instrument can inspire a person to play their best, and I already did post basically that. THAT'S not what your original post said. Anyway, you posted your opinion, I posted mine. My opinion may seem like an attack, I'll grant you if we traded places I'd have felt insulted too. Actually it wasn't intended to be a one-on-one personal attack although I do see how it would seem so.

I'll go so far as to backpedal slightly for you. When I wrote the first reply, I was actually thinking more on the lines of, "this is the kind of thing I've heard from guys with bad tone, can't play etc." I would never say that everyone who thinks the Emmons is the only real steel in the world can't play, etc. As I said, my whole problem is just with the idea of "MINE IS BEST". If you'll see more than the insulting (sorry) parts you'll see I did qualify my objections with solid reasons and examples.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 2:52 pm

And Dennis, nice try but basically you're saying you're amazed I disagree with Paul's opinion yet I dare to have an opinion too. How's that? I never said Paul can't have an opinion. Everyone is welcome to have one. Yes, I disagree that any one steel is the ONLY one. My opinion is, subjects about playing steel, mechanical and electrical issues etc. are far more valuable and interesting to 99.9% of steel players than "my steel is the best cuz it's an Emmons", which seemed to me to be the basic gist of Paul's original post. OK Paul, sorry again, you have every right to post that. I have nothing against you personally. Geez!

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 05 August 2002 at 03:58 PM.]

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 5 Aug 2002 3:01 pm

I don't see how one particular brand of guitar (or anything else, for that matter) can be the "standard by which others are judged".

As we go through life, we have many different experiences that get filed away in our brains, to be used at a later date as a comparison to a current experience. As we play on different guitars, we note what we like and dislike about a particular brand or a particular guitar. Those notes get filed away and reviewed the next time we play a different guitar. The more guitars you play, the more information you have stored in your brain for future reference.

I loved my old p/p Emmons, but it wasn't perfect. I love the Mullen I currently play, but it isn't any better or worse than my Emmons was. My first pedal steel was a blonde Maverick. It was a great guitar, but of course it had its limitations. All of the guitars I've owned have had good points and not-so-good points. None were perfect.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think there can be one brand of guitar, or truck, or shoes, or anything else that can be considered the "standard". They're all different and none are perfect.

During your life experiences you begin to formulate an idea of what is perfect for you. The longer you live and the more experience you have, the more "standards" you will have to compare future experiences to.

------------------
Lee, from South Texas

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 3:21 pm

Thanks Lee for the intelligent and objective comments.

Hey Paul, I have a question about your reply above, when you wrote "many jerks that I have delt with in 22 years on the police dept", did you mean the jerks were IN the police department or.....? OK, I'm just kidding! I know what you meant.

Boy, I hope ex-cops have senses of humor!

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 5 Aug 2002 7:09 pm

Jim P-yes Cops have a sense of humor-it makes bad things bearable-the ones who dont have it are the Jerks IN the dept-as there are so many in world-check my reply to your post-I take no issue with your right to say what you want about my posted opinion and if I am feeling "attacked" it is because your own self-admitted negativity in the way you stereotype me for merely giving my opinion (be it boastful or redundant) about EMMONS-So just to lighten things up here Jim-what kind of steel do you play??? How do you feel about Ketchup???

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 8:26 pm

Paul, yes I can understand you (and others) felt I attacked you, and for that I apologize because hurting your feelings wasn't my intention and I let my strong feelings blind me to realizing that I was going to do that. I did not intend for it to appear I was singling YOU out personally. I wanted to attack the idea, not you personally. I really have come across too many people with tens of thousands of dollars' worth of gear who brag about it and yet sound terrible...so maybe your post was just the straw that broke the camels back. I'll just boil it all down to "I think it's the player more than the gear", and leave it there, OK?

Anyhow, I applaud your attitude and willingness to "agree to disagree".

Well, about what kind of steel I have, at present I only have two, a mid-70's Sho-Bud S-10 and a '74 MSA D-12. The Sho-Bud has the sweeter tone, in my opinion. In the last 30 years of playing steel I've had a Fender 1000, Sho-Bud 6139, ZB D-10, early '60's rosewood Sho-Bud D-11 (now THAT was a great sounding steel!), MSA D-10, Sho-Bud Pro II, and a Pro III. Plus a mess of old lapsteels from a '30-something Gibson EH-150, bakelite Ric, Gibson Skylark, etc. That's all I can remember right now. Believe it or not I did have Curly Chalker's black MSA D-10 for a while in about '89, he actually insisted I borrow it cuz at that time I didn't have a steel, had sold them all and quit music. He told me not to tell anyone "so they don't think ol' Curls has gone soft"! I gave it back cuz I couldn't play it set up the way he had it and didn't dare change anything. Nah, I don't play anything like Chalker, not on E9th OR C6th. I consider myself an average steel player.

Nope, never had an Emmons and though I'd like to just out of curiosity, and before we see "Aha, you're just jealous because you can't have one", I just spent more than enough to buy any Emmons on other things I want more than an Emmons.

So, maybe if I'd bought the Emmons I'd say, "hey, this IS the world's best guitar and all the rest are something else". Sorry but I really don't think so. I think I play my Sho-Bud as well as I'd play an Emmons, but maybe I'll buy one someday for the heck of it. Even if I do get an Emmons one of these days and think it's the best in the world, I would NOT put it on a pedestal and put down the other big-name modern steels. I still believe the player matters more than the equipment. I'd rather hear Buddy, Lloyd, Paul, or Curls on the worst piece of crap than most guys on the best.

Just my opinion, and no better or worse than anyone elses. One thing though Paul, if a guy gives an opinion in a public Forum, especially an opinion that such-n-such is best, you oughta know you're gonna get some disagreement!

Sorry this is so long, I would have put it in a personal email except then it would look like I don't want to answer you publicly.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 8:27 pm

By the way, HEINZ is the best!

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 5 Aug 2002 8:34 pm

These kind of threads just crack me up...there's so many of them. Now, for my two cents....

The only guitars that sing for me are the ones that compliment my picking style. I've had a Sho~Bud, a BMI, an Excel, a Fender, a Multi-Cord and currently a Sierra.

'Buds are beauitful guitars but don't sing for me like they do for Lloyd or Jimmy D.

The Multi Cord had THE sound, but lets face it, the mechanics made pedal playing miserable at best.

I love the sound of someone else playing a Fender Guitar...

I miss my Excel D-10...you don't hear many comments on them but it sang for me.

My Sierra U12 Royalty has a sound of its own. After many months of ownership, I thinks it is starting to sing for me. I'm getting used to the U12 concept and think that it has raised my ability and understanding one whole step. I don't think that it is the guitar that I'll marry though.

Maybe an Emmons next? I've heard Jay Dee play one in person and the guitar do sing.

My hobby now is a Morrell 8 string that was almost "given" to me by a fellow forum member. I'd heared the comments about the "light" pickup but I wanted it anyway. I've played this guitar for a week and a half now and have found the "sweet spot" for the right hand. The guitar will sing. It's sound and vibration is very much like the middle position of a good Stratocaster...one of my favorite sounds...the plastic nut will be the only thing to replace.

Lots of cool hardware but the only keepers are the ones that match my hands and ears.

Long winded and opinionatedly yours,

Tom Jordan

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2002 8:36 pm

Tom, for my money you nailed it. Whatever matches the players hands and ears, that's the best guitar in the world.

And I'm more long-winded than you are.