Dropping E's makes other strings go sharp.....

Jeremy Brownlow · Post by **Jeremy Brownlow** » 7 Jul 2002 9:41 pm

Is there such thing as cabinet "rise"?
When I drop my E's all the other strings go sharp. Right now my solution is to tune the dropped E (D#) a little sharp to match up with the other strings and then compensate with the bar. Is this normal? Can anything be done to fix this?
thanks,
JB

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 7 Jul 2002 10:08 pm

Jeremy! Welcome to cabinet raise.

.Yes it's common on most if not all PSG's.Some have more than others.Most players I know tune the D# to 440 or very close and just live with it.I've heard of nothing that will eliminate cabinet raise.Emmons, as you has the Legrande III that will take care of cabinet drop.It's always somethin!

----bb [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 07 July 2002 at 11:24 PM.]

Jeremy Brownlow · Post by **Jeremy Brownlow** » 8 Jul 2002 5:50 am

Bobby,
Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. I am fairly new at this and still learning something every day! It seems the strings are "rising" more than they used to. Could old strings make this more pronounced? I am about to change 'em and find out.
I just bought a Korg DT-1 rackmount tuner so I am now paying closer attention to what is going on.
thanks,JB

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Jul 2002 6:01 am

If you can't hear it, don't sweat it.
We can analyze our guitars' tuning characteristics 'til we're blue in the face and all it gets us is a blue face.

Slackening or stretching one or more strings changes the tension from the changer to the keys and the other strings go sharp or flat, but USUALLY not enough to notice unless you have it under the microscope. If you CAN hear it and it causes tuning problems you should seek out a solution.

I'm as guilty as anyone (or MORE so), but, IMHO, if we spent more time playing and learning and LISTENING and less time ANALyzing we'll derive more benefit.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Jul 2002 9:51 am

I tune my middle F# string to the pedaled C# note. Then when I lower the E's to D#, I use a compensator to raise the F# to be in tune with the B strings, which have raised a bit because of "cabinet raise".

Here are the actual settings I use, in cents: <pre> knee
4 E +5 D# -5
5 B +5 (+10)
6 G# -5
7 F# -5 F# +10
8 E +5 D# -5
9 D +10
10 B +5 (+10)

The measurements in (parentheses) indicate cabinet raise.</pre>For the high F#, I just tune to 0 cents and leave it.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that this is "right", just that it works for my own ear. Most people tune F# to B and use a compensator to lower the F# with pedals down. I prefer this method, which accomplishes the same thing, sort of.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 08 July 2002 at 10:52 AM.]

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 8 Jul 2002 9:58 am

B0b, on which guitar is that?

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Jul 2002 10:14 am

The Sierra. The Williams doesn't have a middle F# string.

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 16 Jul 2002 7:40 pm

Frist thing I do when I have a tuning problem is try a new string. If the strings are very old it gets a new set.

For reasons I don't understand, when the changers start getting dry, it most always is at the E strings and they won't come back up to pitch.

Bob.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 17 Jul 2002 7:03 am

Picture the tuned strings as a tug of war. When the tension of the "E" notes are lessened by the lowering, the steel guitar body "feels" the reduced amount of pull.on the neck, and it throws the remaining strings into a chaotic state, by increasing their tension. The same rule applies, but with a reversal of problems when a cluster of strings are raised. The body and neck warps ever so slightly, but more than enough to technically relate to the instrument, as "out of tune." This rule carries out to all stringed instruments. One's ability to hear both highs, and lows equally well determines the amount of detection that is picked up by whomever it may concern.

Bill H.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Jul 2002 9:13 am

A "chaotic state", Bill?

Not quite. The detuning is predictable and measurable.

I know what you mean, though. Another point: the "cabinet raise" effect is less pronounced on a double-neck, because the stress change as a percentage of overall cabinet stress is less.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 17 Jul 2002 2:26 pm

Bobby Lee,

There is no mentioning of a double neck steel in the original inquiry. It is therefore logical to assume that the possibility of a single E ninth steel prevails, in the absence of a full definitive description of the instrument. Granted, a dbl. neck would be sturdier in terms of warping, if the player were to play off the strings on the E9th neck. The warping would be more detectible on the C6th neck, due to larger gauges of strings, and the greater amount of tension exerted.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 17 July 2002 at 06:12 PM.]

rickw · Post by **rickw** » 25 Jul 2002 5:55 am

Hi, just play music with the same guitar player that I play with last and the tuning wont mean a thing. This man was loud, my head rang for three days. Ha-just having fun!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Jul 2002 7:37 am

Changing the tension (by lowereing two relatively small strings by a half-tone) should not cause any discernable change in the body! This change is certainly only a few pounds, and if it's really happening due to string tension, and not the knee lever hitting against the stop, it's not a guitar I would keep...no matter how nice it sounds.

Without playability, tone is meaningless.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Jul 2002 9:39 am

I agree completely with Donny. It's something other than the change in tension.

You have to be careful about b0b's statement re:string gauge, however. It's the CORE of the string that is critical for wound strings. I believe that the core of the low E (8) is probably about a 014 -- about the same as what most people use for the high E (4). I know I have run into this experimenting with compound wound strings on my lowest two strings on a 12-string.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Jul 2002 2:19 pm

Donny,

One must consider a host of additional physical aspects when making a judgment on detuning problems associated with the steel guitar. Consider the downward lbs. pull applied by the pedal action on the cross-shaft, or bell-crank. Then go on to determine the downward pressure exerted by the players hand, as he/she forces the bar against the strings. These necessary applications in the course of playing affect the warping, and distortion of the instrument.

Bill H.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 25 Jul 2002 2:45 pm

I've found that lowering the E's with LKR may cause some raise....I lower them with RKL and experience no raise. Checking various guitars at Steel Guitar Nashville has reinforced my notion that knee lever placement seems to have an effect on this raise phenomenon.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Jul 2002 3:40 am

Jeff,

It is a very pleasing thought, when I envision you checking out a variety of steel guitars, while searching for the causes of tuning changes while applying force on knee levers. I believe you played a show in Bristol, Ct. with Slim Coxx a number of years ago. It was at an amusement park. Tina Welch, Johnny White, (yodeling champion, and country singer), Russ Bennett, from Salem, Ma. (extraordinary guitarist) were included in the show. I cannot forget the tilted steel that you played. The front side was about 3" or so lower than the back. I mentioned it to one of the players at a later date, and he said that "It was the way you played." Do you remember that show?

Bill H.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 26 Jul 2002 4:32 pm

No, I played with a guy named 'Narrow Dick', and it was never where you said.
Actually, no, I've never played anywhere near that guy...on or off stage...
Actually, with no joke(hard for me), you got the wrong guy...I have never played that..or tilted anything, or any of that. You got the wrong fella'.
And.....I NEVER play with a yodeling anything!!!
Seriously, it wasn't me...or a sub...or anyone I know.[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 26 July 2002 at 05:35 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Jul 2002 4:59 pm

Jeff,

My apologies for the error. I should have been more careful in making assumptions. The steel guitarist who filled the gig, was an excellent player, who booked other clubs around the Boston, Ma. area. I'm sure his last name is Patterson. His first name must be spelled a little differently. I know some players who will be able to fill me in, should I contact them.

Bill Hankey [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 27 July 2002 at 04:14 AM.]