A simple lick that eludes me!

[Dave Alfstad]

I have been playing steel for about 18 years. There are a few things that I can do well, some that I can't, and many that I have yet to learn. There is one very simple thing that has driven me crazy for years and I can't seem to get over it. Here it is in C:
[tab]
1________________________________________
2________________________________________
3________________________________________
4____________3___________________________
5_____3--3a_____3a--3____________________
6______________________3b________3b______
7__________________________3_____________
8_____________________________3__________
9________________________________________
10_______________________________________
[/tab]
The part that I have a problem with is playing the last 4 notes at a really fast tempo. In a Buck Owens kind of song I can bounce the notes and palm block just fine, but in a faster train-beat type of song, that doesn't work and my fingers get all bungled up.
I have tried practicing the lick over and over and over again slowly and building up speed, but I always seem to hit a wall.
What right hand finger pattern would you guys suggest for the last four notes? I have tried everything that I can think of.
It seems so simple and it drives me CRAZY!!!
Any advice would be appreciated before I dump this contraption in the lake. (Just kidding.)
Thanks,
Dave Alfstad

[Dave Alfstad]

I probably should have posted this in the Pedal Steel section. I apologize.

[Larry Behm]

3-3a index
3 middle
3a-3 index
3b index
3 index
3 thumb
3b middle

try this

Larry Behm

[Joey Ace]

I probably should have posted this in the Pedal Steel section.

No problem... I'm moving it.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Hi Dave,

Most everyone plays a bit different, but you might want to try:

Thumb
Middle
Thumb
Thumb
Middle
Thumb
Middle

There are tons of ways of playing that phrase up to speed. But it's got to be what feels good to you.

Maybe you haven't practiced the cross over/cross under, moves. If not, it might be a good time to do that. Awkward at first but very effective for speed.

Remember, the least amount of fingers you use, the less confusing it will be for not getting them mixed up.

Hope you find the answer that suits your needs.. Don

[Dick Sexton]

1________________________________________
2________________________________________
3________________________________________
4____________3___________________________
5_____3--3a_____3a--3____________________
6______________________3b________3b______
7__________________________3_____________
8_____________________________3__________
9________________________________________
10_______________________________________
.............T...........M...T..............M.....1.....T.....M............

[Keith Currie]

Iam with Dick on this one
Keith

[Sam Conomo]

i am with you dick,one of the keys, is to fisish with your thumb on string 8,there for your middle finger lines up with 6 .easy hit from there.

[Lee Baucum]

For an even better workout, learn to pick each note, without relying on the pedal to bend into the following note.

[b0b]

I pick block, and this is the fingering I use for that lick:
[tab]t=thumb i=index m=middle
finger without fret number=block
1__________________________________________________
2__________________________________________________
3__________________________________________________
4__m_____________m3___m____________________________
5__i____i3--3A___i____i3A--3___i___________________
6__t___________________________t3B___m ________m3B_
7____________________________________i3___i________
8_________________________________________t3___t___
9__________________________________________________
10_________________________________________________
**
**change hand position
[/tab]

[Dale Hansen]

Once again I'm late to the dance, but I'd like to offer this up as a possible alternative.

1________________________________________
2________________________________________
3________________________________________
4____________3___________________________
5_____3--3a_____3a--3____________________
6______________________3b________3b______
7__________________________3_____________
8_____________________________3__________
9_____T__~___M___T_~___M___M__T___M____
10_______________________________________

Another possibility, would be to double pick the thumb, on 7 & 8. Like others have said, and I agree, that it really is best to land the thumb on the 8th string to free up a finger for #6.
This is one of those type of licks that cannot always be dictated by a cross-over rule, or executed by using somebody else's formula. We are all 'hardwired' a little bit differently.
Whenever I am confronted by a pattern that might be executed in a half-dozen different ways, I typically weed out the choices that I know aren't right for me, and give my best available choices a whirl. Then,...I let my fingers 'choose' the way that is best for them. It's really not all that uncommon to pick a second, or even a third note with the same digit.
Trust your own body to teach itself. Once you've settled on a compatible fingering, then the real, permanent, programming can begin in earnest. I recommend hundreds of slow repetitions, to eliminate the thought process, then a few hundred with a metronome to get it 'set'. When it comes naturally, without any thought, tick the tempo up a bit, and just watch your fingers move, all by themselves,..As if you were just an observer. The subconscious mind is very amazing, and it can do wonders whenever the analytical, critical, judgmental part of the mind is kept out of the picture.

Bonus: Here's a video clip of Tommy White, that demonstrates the M-M-T thing. (FF to @ 5:30) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZXm2YxbIuc&sns=em

[Dave Alfstad]

Well, I have tried all of the suggestions here, and I think the one that suits me the best is the one that Dale suggested. It seems more natural to me to play M-M-T-M than to throw the index finger in there for just one note. However, I intend to work on it both ways.
It is hard for me to play this lick cleanly every time, and I guess I just need to practice it more. You'd think after a few years I'd get it. Like I said, I can play it at a medium tempo, but the tempo that I am shooting for is like in Frenchie Burke's Big Mamou. At that tempo it gets sloppy and rather hit-and-miss. I can play the rest of the solo(s), and it just doesn't make sense to me that that would be the part that I have trouble with.
Thanks for all your suggestions.

[Pete Burak]

You could put a little bar movement in there to eliminate the problematic fingering.
I'm not sitting at a Steel right now, but I think you can hit the first 3B note on string 6, then slide back two frets and play strings 6 and 7 for the next 2 notes, then slide back up to 3B on string 6 to finish the lick.

With slides (instead of Pedal bends), you can play the whole run with the A and B pedals down the whole time.

One thing I recall Jeff Newman saying alot...
If you learn something from Tab, break away from it as soon as possible.

[Dave Alfstad]

Thanks for the suggestion, Pete. That might work in some circumstances, but I don't think that it will work in this situation because all of the surrounding notes are on the same fret, and I think it would be cumbersome to move the bar and get back in time. I did not learn this from tab, I just tabbed it out so y'all would understand the phrase that I'm talking about. In fact, the similar phrase in Big Mamou is played at the 12 fret in the key of A. I actually learn very little from tab, and I usually pick things out by ear. I usually chose to learn recorded parts because they offer some technique or phrase that I want to learn. I will probably never play Big Mamou live, and if I do I will most certainly not play it just like the record. However, there are bits of that solo that I really like, and I wanted to figure out what was being played so that I can incorporate those things into my (very small) bag of tricks.
Dave

[Dick Sexton]

Have one of those Ah Ha moments...

Thanks Dale, I need to work on that, very effective. Thank you...

Big Mamou... Love it.

[Tony Prior]

I sat down at the Steel and without thinking about it, I did it pretty close to what Bob did, leading with the first...the only note I would play with the T would be the 8th string...the last note would be the M finger.


If you speak with the seasoned pro's they will tell you to approach things with the least amount of motion, the least amount of right hand movement...

Also in this exercise, the B Pedal should be in early...it should already be IN when you get to the 6th string. It's one less motion that you are needing during the phrase.

These types of patterns take a whole lot of discipline and seat time...they are not things we play at meter in a short time as it is not really about the notes but rather the brain understanding the best technique for your right hand which comes from tones of previous exposure.

It's not really about who's right and who's wrong, it's about KNOWING what approach is natural for you, and then you do it that same way every time you come across a phrase like this.

good luck..t

[Jerry Jones]

I’m primarily a T-M cross-picker with occasional index and double thumb moves when needed. I’d play this just like Dale’s tab above with the exception that the fingering for the last three notes would be T - T - M

For me, moving backwards with two thumb moves on strings 7 and 8 is faster and more economical. With a M - M move, I tend to use excessive hand-hopping for muting....with the T - T move, I only need to move my thumb.

I also pick block the 7th string with my the index finger.

If you are interested, there are some great 6-stringer discussions on the net about alternating picking and its exceptions.

[Michael Sparks]

Spot on, Tony

[joe wright]

Two moves for the right hand

Thumb-index alternate in the fifth position and a backward roll in the eighth position.

Take advantage of the pedal releasing to change positions. Your position is the string your thumb is on...joe

[b0b]

Two moves for the right hand

Thumb-index alternate in the sixth position and a backward roll in the eighth position.

Take advantage of the pedal releasing to change positions. Your position is the string your thumb is on...joe

Don't you mean thumb-index alternate in the fifth position, Joe?

[joe wright]

Made a video of the lick....joe

http://www.pedalsteel.com/jwplayer/forumlick.html

Later...joe

[Gordon Hartin]

Nice video Joe.

I've taken some Skype lesson with Joe, and his setup can show you almost any view of his hands, feet, bar...that you need. Afterwards he'll even send you a download of the video of your lesson.

Gordon

[Franklin]

These are the fingerings I would typically use.....

Index, Middle, Middle, middle, index, thumb

Index, middle, Index, middle, index, thumb

Thumb, middle, index, middle, index, thumb

Thumb, index, middle, middle, index, thumb

it really doesn't matter which fingering for speed, thats a myth.....how fast the mind sees the note pattern is how fast it can be played.

think of your fingers like a drummer sees his kit....great drummers do not have to hit the same drum pattern with the same limbs each time yet the speed is there. they see what needs to happen and whatever limp is available depending on the riff just played is what they use. be ready for anything that pops into the mind. you do that by practicing many different fingerings which is why I am always reluctant to give a specific fingering as the definitive one.

PF

[joe wright]

thanks b0b... i fixed it

Like Paul said there are many ways to skin the cat...

I have a pick on the ring finger so it can also be utilized to facilitate this lick. The key is being free like the drummer in Paul's analogy to change on the fly if needed.

Like in the video the key is having your hand free to change positions no matter which fingering you decide to use...later...joe

[Len Amaral]

Thank you Joe and Paul. Great insight.

Lenny