Body Flexing

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 27 Jun 2002 3:35 pm

We all know that there is a certain degree of cabinet drop when we step on the pedals on the E9. When we step a little too hard the body will flex even more creating more cabinet drop but what if there were a stop under the pedal to prevent this? It seems if you hooked it to the legs in some way it could at least help to some degree. It would be just a simple cast alluminum device with adjustable stops for each pedal. Carpet could present a problem but maybe not. Any thoughts?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Jun 2002 4:17 pm

That was one of the first things that a mechanically minded friend who looked at the underside of my guitars mentioned when I explained 'cabinet drop' to him.

The carpet vs hard floor surface is a hurdle, though. He suggested building a stopping surface between the front legs, but I know Mike Cass (and probably others) carries a thin plastic sheet, like the plexiglass surfaces used for office chairs to protect the carpet. That would work as well.

Another problem is adjusting them. Whenever you adjust the pedal rods, even slightly, you may have to adjust the stop too.

I've been doing some measurements and indeed for guitars that exhibit serious drop, pushing the pedal harder often brings the note down even further. Of course, it's bad technique to stomp on pedals but I think we all do it in the heat of battle from time to time. My push-pull doesn't do it as badly as the other two.

Is anyone aware of this ever having been done?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 27 Jun 2002 4:36 pm

Just a QUESTION..........and I do hope it will not offend any of you professional or otherwise, sensitive pickers.

When was cabinet drop INVENTED?....and what brought it up? Didn't this discovery surface at about the same time all of those electronic tuners came on the scene, or was it when all of those electronic sustains, fuzz, compressors and the like hit the scene, or what?

Was it discovered by BUD ISSACS with his history making BIgsby? Was it Speedy West with his old Bigsby and who recorded all of those fabulous instrumentals? Or, was it J.Murphy and his old fashioned Bigsby?
Was it Pee Wee Whitewing and his Bigsby? or any of the other early day pedal players?

These were old cable systems, not push rods and remember how out of tune those old, one piece aluminum necks distort with changes in temperature. Was cabinet drop not evident in those early days of pedal steel guitar OR, did it arrive on the scene long after the original engineers developed the all pull or push pull models?

Did these professional pickers utilize a softer touch when using the pedals? Since no obvious distortion was noted as with many of todays players that STOMP those pedals and kick those rods....did it not exist?

This is only an observation.....with my own biased point of view, but WHY? is cabinet drop.........still a topic of debate and review over and over again, and yet none of the truly early day pedal players have never once, to my limited knowledge, ever commented on the drawbacks of same?

Is there MORE to this question/topic than the majority of us know about? or what?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Jun 2002 5:04 pm

Ray,
You've been playing this instrument much longer than I have. I know you are aware of the tuning problems that have existed from the get-go. Some have been touting the advantages of cables -- well they can stretch and wear out much easier than metal rods. I've never owned a cable guitar, so I'll leave it at that. As to why the greats of days gone by didn't worry about it -- I believe that most of them played around it. If a combination wasn't true, they either slightly slanted the bar to compensate or didn't use that combination. Buddy Emmons used that argument for one reason why he went to Equal Temperament tuning. Most modern players want to use every pedal and lever combination in ways that weren't thought of earlier on.

You bring up a good point about the aluminum, one-piece neck and the temperature sensitivity -- it is a bad design, but I think there are some keys there -- namely rigidity. Jim Smith says that the Paakawood (or however the he!! you spell it) neck on his Dekley is the key to no detuning on his axe. This may be so. WHERE DID CABINET DROP COME FROM? Possibly from a milled out aluminum neck that doesn't provide the stability a solid wood or solid aluminum one does. Some wood neck guitars also have serious drop, but that may be a function of not bolting the neck securely enough to the body. AND there are multiple potential sources of detuning that have been discussed elsewhere recently.

I think we became sensitized to cabinet drop when we could measure it accurately, with a strobe or digital tuner, but I have an axe that you can definitely HEAR it on. I'd love to just get rid of it -- unfortunately

it is the best sounding 12-string steel made today (to me, of course). But when you play the 6th string and push the A pedal and let off it, YOU CAN HEAR IT DROP AND RETURN TO PITCH. That must be fixed. I can live with 3-5 cents drop, but more than that is not acceptable. You can't tune the open EMaj, C#Maj, and C#m chords to please my ear because of it.

That's my fix on it right now and I'm working with Jerry Fessenden to solve it. I think one or more of his working hypotheses will solve it acceptably for me. It is NOT my imagination -- it does exist and makes an otherwise wonderful sounding guitar difficult to play for me -- so it's worth fixing. I can't throw this baby out with the bath water.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 27 June 2002 at 06:39 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Jun 2002 6:43 pm

Just as an observation, I've noticed that on almost all steels (except possibly the old Fenders), the front apron (that supports the bellcranks that change the downward pulling motion of the floor pedals to a rotary one, that turns the cross shafts) is an integral part of the body. This doesn't seem like good engineering. Not only does it transmit the pedal pressure directly to the string-supporting body of the instrument, it also transmits the sound of the pedals directly to the body. I think the Fender design (with a separate body and frame) was a good idea, and no doubt contributed to their lack of "drop". I think the cable idea, though, could never be as solid and precise as rods.

Like Ray though, I think that if it's not easily noticable by ear, then "cabinet drop" isn't a problem. It is possible to be too precise, 'ya know. Even the best carpenters don't use micrometers.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 27 Jun 2002 8:40 pm

Ray,
I always played the Emmons P/P guitars and didn't know what cabinet drop was until someone told me. I made the mistake of getting a Derby guitar that had serious cabinet drop and only kept the guitar for 6 months so I take notice of it now. I think we can tune these things more than we play them but on certain guitars it's a problem that needs to be addressed.

Gil Berry · Post by **Gil Berry** » 28 Jun 2002 12:15 am

I agree, Donny. Although I've never played (or even SEEN) one, I understand the Anapeg has very little (if any) cabinet drop. I further understand that the "top" of the guitar (including the neck) "floats" above the body of the guitar, and is not physically hard-attached to the body, where the mechanics are located. This, if true (Am I right, Winnie?) tends to make your observation "right on".......

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 28 Jun 2002 4:54 am

One observation that I have made, lo these 70 years of God's precious gift (life itself), is two definite and distinctive schools of thought:

Denial that a problem exists. OR, it is minimal.

and the other one.

The subject constantly coming up over and over again.

Here is an example:

1. The third string breakage is not a problem. "I don't have a problem with it". "I never break one". "You ought to change the string before it breaks anyway."

and,,,,,

2. Thread after thread after thread year after year after year talking about the 3rd string breakage.

The fact of the matter is, string breakage IS a problem, it IS a problem when one plays in a band and it will conjur widespread debate until it is eliminated once and for all. Two manufacturers have solved this malady; so far.

The other of course is "cabinet drop".

Proof that the problem DOES exist and it plagues a lot of players, is the fact that at least one manufacturer has gone to the expense to make a guitar WITH a solution. Plus, they sell a slew of LeGrande III's. Buddy has TWO of them. His comment was on this forum:

"It does what it was designed to do".

When one considers that the option costs around 300 dollars per neck!, AND they sell them, the problem is NO myth and players are willing to pay this high cost to get around the problem.

luv ya,

carl

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 28 Jun 2002 6:24 am

I made the mistake of getting a Derby guitar that had serious cabinet drop and only kept the guitar for 6 months so I take notice of it now.

Frank,
as a Derby player, I never noticed more or less cabinetdrop in the machine than other brands like Carter, Mullen, Emmons LG I & II, Williams, MSA,my Sho~Bud-Fender, Sho~Bud, and other brands I can think of. I have the idea the Derby you had, wasn't in the condition it uses to be....

JJ
www.steeljj.com

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 28 Jun 2002 6:44 am

Heed C. Dixon's summation:
Two major problems exist and there are answers to both.

Rick

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 28 Jun 2002 6:52 am

Gee, I was doing some serious body flexing in front of the mirror this morning when my wife walked in and pointed out my serious case of cabinet drop, that really "burst my bubble".

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 28 Jun 2002 8:36 am

Yeah me too. When I do some body flexing in front of the mirror, I notice that I suffer from "furniture drop..." My chest has dropped into drawers!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Jun 2002 8:58 am

I see you guys are being FRANK with each other.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 28 Jun 2002 9:08 am

Yeah, We're being "frank" all right, just not "perfectly frank", not just yet anyway. Hey Larry, BTW, Can you e-mail me your # @ Pharmacia? Thanks, F.R.

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"Oh the girls all get prettier at closing time"

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 28 Jun 2002 9:22 am

If the Old Guys can recall that during the days that preceded pedals, when we broke a string either thru tuning or pulling behind the bar to achieve a note we needed, we had to quit and retune the remaing strings before we could continue to play. We would stop and yell at the lead guitarist or the fiddle layer to take over so we could replace the string. Would you say that this detuning factor was a form of "cabinet Drop?"

Also while we are on the subject...did you ever hear the difference 'tween a black guitarist and a white guitarist (or steeler)?The Black Guitarist PLAYS all night and the White Guitarist TUNES tunes all night.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 30 Jun 2002 10:18 pm

Thank you gentlemen....... I sincerely do appreciate your insite. Muchly appreciated.

Ray Montee
If Love is BLIND, why is lingerie so popular?

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 1 Jul 2002 11:40 am

Kenny when a string breaks on a Hawaiian steel......then you are loosing the original amount of pressure that is on the bridge from all strings......therefore the remaining strings will go sharp to a degree depending on the string sizes.

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Ricky Davis

My Homepage
Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@aol.com

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Jul 2002 11:55 am

Ricky,
WHY does that happen? Is it because the distance between the nut and bridge actually changes when the string breaks? If so, that would indicate that a more rigid body would flex less. Or is it something else? If it's strung with all strings, it would be pulling the nut toward the bridge. When one breaks it would not pull as tight and the distance could change slightly. That's what I've always thought was happening but I've been wrong before

I've seen non-pedal AND pedal steels that would do this more than others. Why the variation? Is it body flex or ain't it????
That would be one explanation for the variation between different steels.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 1 Jul 2002 12:07 pm

Larry,
If the lap steel has 'Through body stringing' (like a Fender Telecaster), I would expect to see less tension movement of the strings if one broke, than if the strings were anchored at the bridge. This might explain why some lap steels exhibit more tuning discrepancies than others.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 1 Jul 2002 2:56 pm

WEll lets see if I can explain my findings Larry.
It "is" how the Bridge and Nut are mounted or resting in their postition. I haven't seen all Hawaiian steels; but I've seen a few.
There is downward pressure on the Bridge and Nut from the strings......now if a string breaks; of course there is less downward pressure. Now if the bridge and nut were sitting on Concrete; there would be no movement in the other strings if one breaks...but of course we like Wood....so there is a give there. But like the SS HAWAIIAN and Fender guitars; there is a metal plate that the Bridge sits on and the strings attach to; and the Nut is srewed into the wood. So again there will be some movement in the Nut if a string breaks.....but don't believe there is in the Bridge....but hard to test that theory. So wood does give and it does warp and it does get pulled on; but eliminating just how it's pressure pointed is in the design....and of course the way strings are attached and what kind of material is used.
So all in all; I'm not saying that a wood body doesn't flex.....I'm saying that there are other factors that come in play; way before the body will flex.
On my SS HAWAIIAN; if a string breaks or as I'm putting on strings....there is diffinatly pressure movements that make the strings differ in pitch as you are lacking a string or as you are putting them on.
But it is very very minumal; and tuning is not an issue if one breaks on my guitar; but it was a little bit more on my Fenders....but still not that bad.
I hope all this I just said is somewhat understandable.....and your not saying to yourself: "Gosh he said all that and he didn't really say anything"....ah....ha....But I do love these design discussions.....and I sure wish the Great one..."Chas" would put his brain in here.......Hello??? Chas??? "is this the right direction pal"????
Ricky

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 1 Jul 2002 8:12 pm

Thanks Ricky for answering my post. I know there is a variation of tension when a string breaks and when this happens, "things move". I have seen it even on pedal steels.

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kd...and the beat goes on...