How much cabinet drop?

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 21 Jun 2002 8:26 am

Jim, My guitar is a LoneStar Texas Special 10 string with 3 and 2. It has a wood neck, keyless tuners and a changer which is supported between each finger.
Ernest, You raise some good questions. I can answer the second one quite simply. It can't be done. There is no tension on the pedal with the nut backed off. The pedal drops to the bottom of its range on the pedal bar. It is raised into position by the tuning nut.
The second question requires a test with my guitar which I will do tonight.

I want to thank all of the people who have contributed on this topic. It has led me through some interesting twists and turns. I have not finished with my testing but am close to the end. I strongly suspect that I will be in the market for a new guitar shortly. Therefore, I ask that those of you who have not posted your cabinet drop yet to please do so. I would like to see a sampling of a broader range of guitars. I think the information will help me and other pickers who are contemplating a new guitar. I think ultimately it will lead to a broader awareness by the manufacturers of what engineering and construction factors need to be incorporated into the design of the steel guitar.

Karlis

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Jun 2002 9:21 am

I second that request for more data and will volunteer to compile the results once we have a few more brands represented.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 21 Jun 2002 9:38 am

Sorry about the multi-posts, It didn't appear to post so I tried again & again & again...

I guess there was a delay of some sort in the cyber highway.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Jun 2002 9:49 am

Thanks for your response, Sidney.
Is your Fessy on a single or double frame?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » 21 Jun 2002 10:04 am

2001 Derby SD-10 3&5, metal neck

3rd .011 w/A 1.5
4th .014 w/AB 4.0
5th .017 w/AB 4.0
6th .020P w/AB 6.0
8th .030 w/AB 5.0

This is about as close as I could get with my funky old tuner. I'd like to see what other Derby owners come up with. Great topic!

Steve[This message was edited by Steve Miller on 21 June 2002 at 02:47 PM.]

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 21 Jun 2002 10:13 am

I think I might be doing this wrong, but... my 6th string (.020) goes off the scale when I press the B pedal! What does that mean?

Seriously, Steve, I found your posting comparing those three guitars very interesting. It was well laid out.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 21 Jun 2002 10:26 am

Larry, my Fessy it is on a single frame with Laquer finish.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 21 Jun 2002 2:44 pm

Here's what I came up with:
2000 Carter U-12, 1 1/2 wide body, aluminum neck.

3rd, .011-------w/A= 0
4th, .014-------w/AB= -2 cents
5th, .017-------w/B= -4 "
6th, .020-------w/A= -6 "
8th, .030-------w/AB= -4 "

It sounds fine to me.[This message was edited by Bill Moore on 21 June 2002 at 03:46 PM.]

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 21 Jun 2002 3:04 pm

...my 6th string (.020) goes off the scale when I press the B pedal! What does that mean?

I conclude that The Man Upstairs must be punishing you for some reason, Frank.

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 21 Jun 2002 4:48 pm

Ernest, Thank you for suggesting that I check for deflection by retuning the strings instead of pressing the pedals. I still had my deflection gauge on my guitar so I tuned the 5th and 10th strings up a whole step. The Deflection gauge moved .0009" like it did when I pedaled the A pedal which raises the same strings a full step. That tells me that the pedals are not a factor. If the pedals were causing any of the problem, my numbers would have been different. So at this point, I have to decide if I will live with it or sell the guitar and buy another one.

Karlis

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Jun 2002 9:04 pm

Karlis,

You just proved my argument of 40 yrs!

I have never accepted it was the pedals pulling down on the cabinet that is causing 90% or more of the problem. It has to be stresses of some kind. I believe your experiment proves this.

Thank you soooo much,

carl

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 21 Jun 2002 11:14 pm

Yeaaaaah Duhhh....that's what I said.
Also. The axle being supported inbetween each finger....will not eliminate the drops or raise....the only way to do this is.....well shoot; I already said it in my previous post.....duh.......anybody read it....or give a shi!!!!......Just stick a titainium axle in there and be done with it. Or build the changer system like what is explained in my post....or Just live with it>......like we all do.
Oh and there is zero drop on my 6th string(G#) when pedal A is enguaged......cause I use a wound string....like everyone should.
If there are folks truely interested in limiting your drops and raises when enguaging other changes.....e-mail me and I'll give you some ideas for your particularly pedal steel......but I'm done posting on this one.....as it has turned out about as boring as the stupid 440 tuning threads....
Ricky
Ricky

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 21 Jun 2002 11:24 pm

If a measurement was made between the nut and the changer, then the strings were raised, I am sure that the measurement would decrease, due to compression of the body. Of course, it would be very difficult to take such accurate measurements. I am merely offering my theory.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 22 Jun 2002 6:43 am

Regardless of how boring it might be, I'd still be interested to see more info on more steels. I'd like to know if there is really a trend with the Emmons, for example.

Steve

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 22 Jun 2002 7:52 am

Steve Miller, here:
Derby D-10 8x6 (E9 neck, guages are same as yours.)

3rd B to AB: 0
4th AB: -2
5th A to AB: -3
6th B to AB -5
8th AB: -5

Me happy.
[This message was edited by Rex Thomas on 22 June 2002 at 08:54 AM.]

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 22 Jun 2002 7:59 am

I would hope that people will continue to add their measurements to this thread. I would like to see some of the other guitars listed. I have a personal interest to be sure. However, I would hope that what really comes out of this topic and others like this is a textbook of sorts for guitar manufacturers. I would like to see engineering studies of various materials such as hardwood, dieboard, aluminum, etc., which show deflection under conditions encountered on the steel guitar. 10 strings each exerting 25 pounds of pull suspended 1 1/2 inches above the cabinet will give a quantifiable deflection on the material. Adding more pull (stepping on a pedal - increasing the tension on a string) will increase the deflection. This kind of information is quantifiable and should be available to every guitar manufacturer so that he or she can use the information along with all of the other factors to improve the quality of his or her guitars. I would like to see all guitar manufacturers improve their guitars. I think there is room in this business for each and every one of them. But they should all have the latest information avalaible rather than having to get there by trial and error. This topic is just a starting point for information sharing.

Richard, The cabinet deflection is measurable. I used a deflection gauge calibrated to .0001" with a range of .004". The range of deflection on the guitar is very small but is measurable.
Here are a couple of pictures of my test apparatus.

Karlis

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Jun 2002 9:09 am

karlis,

YOU be MY kind of man,

bless you friend,

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Jun 2002 11:27 am

My Sierra SD-12 started life as a D-12/10. When I removed the back neck, the amount of "cabinet drop" nearly doubled.

I believe that the phenomenon is largly caused by changes in overall stress on the cabinet. When my guitar was a double neck, the amount of stress change was less because the stress induced by the strings of the back neck was part of the equation.

You D-10 players can confirm this the next time you change strings on your C6th. Measure your cabinet drop on the E9th with a meter. Then retune the E9th after the back neck strings have been removed and measure cabinet drop again. If I'm right, you will see the amount of drop nearly double.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 22 Jun 2002 3:32 pm

Rick
Your comment regarding Fender building a jet
engine was standard procedure for Leo Fender.

Everything Leo designed was done in a manner
that the instrument would withstand the abuse
and wear and tear that musicians would often
give the Fender whatever,,,bass,,guitars,,
steel guitars,,amps etc,,,,,that was what made him GREAT...Others are still trying to play catch up to Leo,, and that all started before most of us were born.

There will NEVER BE ANOTHER LEO FENDER and you can take that to the bank.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Jun 2002 4:19 pm

Jody,

"There will NEVER BE ANOTHER LEO FENDER and you can take that to the bank."

You are 100% correct. He was also one of the cleverest business men ever.

Two of his favorite things that I recall were:

1. He would give ONE dealer in a given area lifetime excusivity if they would carry the Fender line when NO body ever heard of Fender in the 50's. He never went back on that word either.

2. He was the first to use a special audio taper on his controls. IE, most of the action of volume, tone, etc. occurred in the first 10% of travel of the pot.

Why was this clever? Simply put, it was perceived by the player that the Fender was a much more powerful amp than the others. Course that was NOT the case. But it worked.

God rest his soul,

carl

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 22 Jun 2002 7:24 pm

Carl
What you stated,was considered a "family secret"

this I thought was only known to
the family.

Your comments re -exclusivity are little known to most,,so in all fairness,,,I have to
regards YOU as "family". Thank you for the
boost.

Your other comments are 150%,,,you must be a
"Fender Original" It is a pleasure to know someone who is aware of Leo's theory and accompolishments,,,which go well beyond his genius as an Innovator...he was a fine and thoughtful and caring human being as well,,
That is how I shall always remember him.

There was more to Leo than just designing great instruments. I have many stories of Leo
that I will someday write about.

Thanks for such a nice post...

Be Well
Jody,,,as for you Carl..."Its all in the Family"

guess you are one of the very few family members left,,happy to see there are still some family out there.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 23 Jun 2002 6:57 am

Steve my friend your right.....as boring as it may be(and it's not really that boring); this is all valuable information for the progression and history of our instrument.
My Emmons Lashley Lagrand(that Bill Terry now owns); had more drop than my ShoBud. I don't have it anymore but I remember a little more than 5 cents on the 4th string with A&B pushed. And more than 5 cents on the 6th string(G#) with A pedal pushed. It also had a 5 cent raise on the 5th string when 4th string lower was pushed. My ShoBud just does not do anything on any of those changes except of course A&B down...and barely a 5 cent drop on 4th string E note.
My 6th string on my Bud is a wound...and I put a plain on there(just to see).....and by golly she dropped and raised......so there's the answer there and is why I use a wound 6th and other reasons too.
Have fun.....and I appologize if I was snippy....as I just got through reading those other threads(you know the ones)...and it just put me in a bad mood right before I posted that last bit....but the info is still hard-fast....but the temperment is not from me...it was from the guy that those threads made me into.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 23 June 2002 at 08:00 AM.]

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 27 Jun 2002 5:35 am

I just got this e-mail.

Here's my 1982 D-10 Franklin.

I have the Emmons pedal setup.

My 6th string (G#) drops 7 cents when the A pedal is pushed.

My 4th string (E) drops 8 cents when the B pedal is pushed.

Karlis

jim flynn · Post by **jim flynn** » 28 Jun 2002 6:31 pm

Karlos, Sounds like a lot of drop, lots more than I have in my other guitars. I you can do without it for a few weeks, ship it back
and I'll either fix it or replace it.
Jim Lone Star Steel Guitars

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Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 28 Jun 2002 7:18 pm

Now that's a heck of a deal, bravo Jim Flynn!

And I thought Jerry Fessenden was the only manufacturer with that kind of service!

[This message was edited by Jim Smith on 28 June 2002 at 08:18 PM.]