How much cabinet drop?

Tom Ward · Post by **Tom Ward** » 20 Jun 2002 2:15 am

I hear Reece's new carbon-fiber neck will solve the cabinet-drop problem??? Anyone tried one??? Tom

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 20 Jun 2002 3:54 am

-b0b-, It's a Peterson VS-1 tuner. They say it's accurate to 1/10 of a cent, but who know (or who cares....). It IS very stable, though, and easy to get a reproducible reading. I usually tune by JI using harmonics, but I can now quantify the scheme and save it as a preset in the tuner for when I can't hear the harmonics. You can get them for well below list at various places. It's a nice unit.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Jun 2002 5:15 am

Yes the Petersen Strobe VS-1 is the one. From all I have read, this is the rolls-royce of all tuners out there.

Here's the link:

http://www.izzy.net/~jc/PSTInfo/PSTInfo.html

I want one sooooooooooooo bad. But the budget won't permit.

carl

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Jun 2002 7:46 am

anyone building a Pedal steel with single moving changer fingers and each one supported soundly and individually....will solve the problem too.

Sho-Bud's have individual supports and still have cabinet drop. Emmons tried individual supports on their first LeGrandes, but it didn't help so they went back to no supports.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Jun 2002 7:52 am

NOTE:
(pay special attention Carl)
MUSICIANS FRIEND HAS THE VS-1 for $199
That's the best price I've seen anywhere, so . . . . . I bought one.

I know I kinda started the poll thing, but I'll get my numbers posted (more accurately) once it arrives on Friday.

Karlis, Those numbers are ABYSMAL. You need a different guitar, my friend. I have a Fessy with a serious problem, but not THAT SERIOUS. I think we're beginning to get a handle on a solution, at least for my guitar. As I mentioned before, the solution may vary according to the construction of the guitar.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 20 Jun 2002 8:25 am

Larry, You are right about the numbers being way out of line. Although the guitar has a number of nice features, the one place that is obviously lacking is the nut. It is about a 1/4" to 3/8" steel rod. Unfortunately, it is supported only at the ends. It is visibly deflected in the at-rest position. I am going to buy or borrow a dial-gauge to see if it is the source of the large drop. I suspect that it is. I will check the fretboard and changer for deflection while I am about it. I suspect if the nut is the major source of the deflection, I can make or have made a new nut which rests on the body of the guitar. More on this later.

Karlis

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Jun 2002 9:09 am

Karlis,

Don Christensen (former owner of Sierra) told me once that he put dial indicators all over his guitar and was unable to find any deflection on ANY Indicator when he engaged pedals OR knee levers.

I buy this; and I will tell you why. On a 4-40 thread (which Emmons and some others use on their pull rods), it is easy to turn the nylon tuner so the movement is less than even a thousanth of an inch!! IN fact you can actually hear a change that NOT even a dial indicator can pick up!!

I know this sounds incredible but it is true.

So I say to any one trying to get to the root cause of so-called cabinet drop, Good luck and you are going to need Jesus to help you on this anamoly!

I have never been convinced that it is the cabinet bowing that is causing most of cabinet drop. And I disagree with the late Ron Lashley about the changer fingers being supported between each finger.

Surely it has to help. Even though it may not be all the cause. I simply cannot believe that a 3 inch axle supported only at its ends, would not flex MORE than one supported between each finger! Just does not make sense!!

And I can prove this. Take a .022 gauge string and put it on the first string. Leave the 6th string a .022. Adjust the pull rod on the first string so Both the first and 6th strings are in unison with the B pedal engaged versus non-engaged.

Now, connect a tuner to the guitar and engage the A pedal. You will find that the 1st string will drop LESS than the 6th string. The ONLY possible answer for this is the axle is bowing in the center in a typical parabolic shap due to its being supported at both ends. Since the first string is right at the support and the 6th string is right at the middle, this proves to me, (IMO) that the axle IS in fact flexing more and more as you approach the center of it.

Further proof of this is: how does the LeGrande III solve "cabinet drop". It simply has a "counter force" (crowbar as Johnny Cox calls it) that pushes the axled to the right at its center point.

Why do it there? The answer should be obvious. The axles is the culprit at least to some degree. Or I have to turn in my degree in mechanical engineering.

carl

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Jun 2002 10:44 am

I made a serious error concerning the VS-1. I had in my mind one thing and typed something else.

I know nothing of the Peterson VS-1 Strobe tuner. The one I had in mind and the one my link goes to is called a Precisions Strobe tuner. And its specs show accuracy down to .01 cents. And its "absolute" accuracy is .1 cents.

The Peterson is priced at $199.00 on the web. The Precision is priced at $525.00 on the web.

Quite a difference in price I think.

I would give anything to get my hands on the Precision tuner. I gotta Know what would cause its price to be that much higher than the Peterson.

carl

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 20 Jun 2002 11:01 am

Hey Jim; I guess what I meant was if someone was to make each changer finger on it's own axle and supports...then It would have none dropus.
I know this for a fact.....because my Machinist and great steel player/builder.....David Parker.....builds his pedal steels this way....and I've played on his personal one......and there is zero drop on anything/any combo....just None>Zero>does not flinch.......
His guitars are made out of Mertle wood and of course he has some great inovations to his guitars(that he actually designed over 30 years ago; way beyond our time); but if the cabinet was gunna flex from pushing pedals...his would, but don't....
Also; my new Fulawka will be here in a week and I will put it to the test....but I already know there will be "NO" drop on anything...because of a special suprise feature....that I will unfold after I get it.....but Ed Fulawka and David Parker are soooo far beyond our feble brains(and were pretty smart); but again.......they knew this and have been designing these features(both of them)....for 30 years.
Oh and Ed is soooooo back-ordered......his turnaround time on his (every part is hand made)Fulawka is over a year and probably more.
But the other builders certainly build some nice steels.....but wrong designs(sorry but it's true; cause I have proof).....oh and I'm just talking out loud and I only told Jim about what I meant in my previous post.....but as I was talking out loud here in this post.....I guess I gave away some secrets......ha......ha.....but we don't have Ed and David around into our future....so someone out there just might use some of their inovations......that never really got to the head of the table...as neither one of them are into a huge marketing/production of steel guitars.....they just love building the best steel they can when they want.
Ricky

Waisznor · Post by **Waisznor** » 20 Jun 2002 11:04 am

4th string A/B : 1-2 cents
5th string B : 2 cents
6th string A : 2 cents
8th string A/B : 1-2 cents
(14,17,20p)

Emmons D 10 Push/Pull 198? (Serial-Nr. 6639)
10 Pedals / 10 KL

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 20 Jun 2002 11:08 am

Carl, On my guitar the changer fingers are supported between each finger. My problem looks like it is at the other end of the neck. The nut is a slender rod supported at the ends. It is a keyless model so there is no roller.
I agree with your assessment of deflection being greater in the middle of the span than near the ends. If the changer is only supported at the ends, then it has to deflect unless it is an extremely rigid material and it will deflect more in the center of the span.

Karlis

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 20 Jun 2002 3:19 pm

Maybe what we are experiencing really is cabinet drop. I know you have wood, glue and Formica that the neck sits on. It seems that this would not flex.

Cabinet drop is probably caused by a combination of most of the factors mentioned.

Rick [This message was edited by Rick Collins on 20 June 2002 at 04:20 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Jun 2002 4:49 pm

Rick,
I was talking to Jerry Fessenden about that very issue. He says that if you take a large furniture clamp and span the length from endplate to endplate and tighten the clamp, you can see (and hear) the notes go sharp.

Another thing he told me was that many steel guitar makers feel that a guitar with no cabinet drop usually doesn't sound good. I believe he quoted Paul Franklin, Sr.

So this 'quest' may be to find the happy medium, which I believe, and is verified by the results that the Emmons push-pull players have posted earlier in this thread, that some great sounding guitars have very little, but few have none (except perhaps Jim's Dekley -- that is pretty amazing). My push-pull is the same way -- very little, but SOME, deflection.

I'm curious about Emmons LeGrandes without the 'crowbar' and other brands -- how 'bout Sierra and Carter, etc.?????

The quest continues . . .

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 20 June 2002 at 05:53 PM.]

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 20 Jun 2002 5:33 pm

Carl, I got a deflection dial indicator calibrated in .0001. I checked my changer and my nut and could see no change on the gauge. I am going to look further. The cabinet may be the real issue. More later.

Karlis

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Jun 2002 5:43 pm

Larry,

My Lashley LeGrande has about 5 cents drop on the 6th string when the A pedal is engaged. Half of what my Excel does. But still annoying as all get out to me.

Interestingly, Emmons came out with the III just shortly after I purchased mine. And since they will not retrofit to a III, I am stuck with it. I would not dare trade it in for a III because it has a sound to die for.

And as many have found out, there are wide variances in sound between the exact same make and models of guitars. Which should be word to the wise IF, you have a great sounding guitar and are contemplating a new one.

I had a 69 Emmons' P/P and it did NOT have "that" sound. In fact I believed for years that it was a myth about the P/P sound. Until a student brought his over. And the moment I sat down to it, the sound was there!

Then I knew what the hoopla was all about. Course its undercarriage was just as sloppy as mine was, so I am glad I traded it. There ARE things just as important as sound im my book.

I wish to blue heavens my U-12 had the sound the LeGrande has, but Jesus never promised us all roses in life. Did he?

carl

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 20 Jun 2002 6:20 pm

Would you believe cabinet drop? Since I could find no drop in my changer and nut, I rigged up an apparatus to check my cabinet deflection. I made a platform to span the length of the guitar about 2 1/2 inches high out of a piece of rigid hardwood. I clamped it to the ends of my guitar so that there was no pressure on the center of the span - only at the edges. I clamped my .0001" deflection gauge to the piece of hardwood so that it touched the neck at the center of the long distance. I then pedaled the guitar and was amazed to see actual deflection. The deflection was repeatable for each pedal pushed. If I pushed harder on the pedals after they reached the stop, the deflection increased even more.
I measured the deflection at .0009" pressing the A pedal which raises the 5th and 10th strings 1 full step. I measured the deflection at .0006" pressing the B pedal which raises the 3rd and 6th strings 1/2 step.
Considering the cent numbers I got when I measured the drop with my tuning meter, a case could certainly be made for the cabinet being a significant component of cabinet drop. I still have to measure the underside of the changer to see if spring pressure is a factor as well.

Karlis

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Jun 2002 6:25 pm

Karlis,
Does your guitar have a wood or aluminum neck?

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Jun 2002 7:09 pm

Karlis, can you try the same thing with a lower, such as lowering your E's. I'd like to see if you have cabinet raise too.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 21 Jun 2002 3:46 am

Cabinet Drop as follows on Fessenden S-12 built in 1998........ Checked with a Korg DTR-2

3rd (.011) w/A - 3 cents
4th (.014) w/AB - 4 cents
5th (.017) w/B - 4 cents
6th (.020) w/A - 4 cents (plain string)
8th (.032) w/AB - 5 cents

I must say I am very satified with the tone of this guitar and my ears don't hear the cabinet drop when playing with a band. This is the first time I've ever checked the drop because if I can't hear it, it's a non issue to me. But if this info will help improve the guitar, I'm all for it!!

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 21 Jun 2002 5:26 am

Larry, I have a wood neck.
Jim, I should have measured for cabinet raise. It occurred to me after I dismantled my testing rig that I should have cabinet raise as well. I will test for that this evening and report my results.

Karlis

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 21 Jun 2002 5:58 am

Thanks Karlis!

Sydney, you can say that again, oh you already did!

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 21 Jun 2002 6:37 am

Cabinet raise! Jim, you were right about cabinet raise. My right knee lever kick left located right of center lowers my 4th and 8 strings 1/2 step. I measured cabinet raise between .0002" and .0003". It was repeatable. The most interesting reading was on my left knee lever kick left which raises my 4th and 8th strings 1/2 step. The reading on this was a slight initial raise between .0000" and .0001" and then back to zero. This requires some more investigation since the prediction would be cabinet lower rather than raise or no change.

Karlis

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 21 Jun 2002 6:47 am

Karlis, I browsed back through the topic and don't see what brand of guitar you are testing. You say it's keyless so that narrows it down quite a bit, but can you share the brand or are you trying to protect the guilty?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 21 Jun 2002 7:46 am

How much does your E string drop when you raise your G#s to A, and your Bs to C#, using the tuning keys and not the pedals?

How much does your E string drop when you mash a pedal that doesn't pull any strings (for example by backing off your nylon tuning nuts for this test)?

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 21 Jun 2002 8:19 am

I have held on to this thought for a long time as nearly a certainty:

The ultimate (high-tech) pedal steel guitar will be constructed with a cabinet made of an aluminum/magnesium alloy, probably die-cast, but maybe an extrusion and welded method. Unlike the old Fender frame, it will have a metal top recessed about 3/4" to accept solid wood, dieboard, or Formica on wood. The metal top will be honey-coned or have open areas to reduce weight.

Aircraft control surface cables riding on eccentrically mounted composite pulleys will comprise all mechanical linkage.

Fender was on the right track for a pedal steel guitar. The derailment came when custom manufacturers begin to copy (and improve upon) so many of the Bigsby features,___and it had some pretty good ones.

Contemplate this analogy:

Fender was working on the "jet engine". Custom manufacturers are sticking with the "reciprocating engine" and are looking for "power" in the wrong place.

Rick [This message was edited by Rick Collins on 21 June 2002 at 09:23 AM.][This message was edited by Rick Collins on 21 June 2002 at 09:29 AM.]