Twin reverb FAIL for PSG

[Donny Hinson]

Bob is dead-on with those comments!

Actually, most Fenders will work pretty well with high-output pickups if you merely turn the amp volumes all the way up. This forces you to use less volume pedal, and therefore put less signal into the amps input circuit. I'll admit it is a hard sell, though, to players who haven't mastered the use of a volume pedal.

Playing quietly with the amp turned way up is a very valuable skill, one which more players should learn.

[Steve Spitz]

Lets not forget a pot pedal vs an active pedal. My twin sounded better with the old school pot pedal. You can overdrive the amp with an active pedal. I've since learned I can tone down the signal on the active pedal, which works, but I think the classic twin sound is a single coil into a pot pedal. What do hardcore ShoBud guys use ?

[Brett Lanier]

The tubes you use in a twin will make a big difference in tone and headroom. I've tried the following in the power section of mine.

4-6l6's - stock setup, good for guitar but you can do a lot better for pedal steel.

2-KT88's or 6550's - they draw a lot of current so the bias should be brought down a little and beefing up the screen resistors is a good idea too.

4-kt66's - Currently what I have in my twin.

The results from four kt66's or two kt88/6550's is similar. Lots more clear low end and headroom than with 6L6's. A twin reverb with these tubes and a 15" JBL speaker is a very different amp than a stock twin.

Also you can try a 5751 in the preamp (1st or 2nd position depending on what channel you're using). They have 30% less gain than a 12ax7, so if you have a really hot pickup and you're getting preamp distortion this can be the trick to cleaning it up. Keep in mind that you'll have to turn the amp up a little more, so thats where the big power tubes come in handy.

I've been really enjoying my twin after having it worked on and finding the right tubes. It was totally worth it!

[Lynn Kasdorf]

Lets not forget a pot pedal vs an active pedal. My twin sounded better with the old school pot pedal. You can overdrive the amp with an active pedal. I've since learned I can tone down the signal on the active pedal, which works, but I think the classic twin sound is a single coil into a pot pedal. What do hardcore ShoBud guys use ?

Interesting point about the output level of the new pickups and active pedals. Bear in mind of course that active pedals (like my Hilton) have a master level control, so if I was driving a tube amp, I could dial it back for a cleaner sound with the trim pot on the bottom of the pedal.

Regarding playing at the back of the pedal (close to off), I really hate playing like that because it is easy to accidentally let out a hugely loud sound. Also, I play a lot of western swing, and pedal swells work a lot better when you can use most of the range of the pedal travel.

[Johnny Thomasson]

I take it this was a '65 RI? When these first came out, I gave some thought to retiring my '65 Twin w/15" JBL before I wore it completely out. I A/B'd my old hand wired Twin with a RI and trust me, there is NO comparison. The two amps were so far apart, it was hard to believe they were even the same brand. My Twin is clean, smooth and powerful. The RI was loud, but the tone was brittle and honky, and I couldn't dial it out. I guess Fender made money on these, but to the RIs I say, No Thanks. JMHO, naturally.

I've had it on plenty of loud stages, and I swear I never ran the volume above 4. About 3 for "normal" volume level situations. It may only be 85 watts, but it will produce every bit as much clean volume as my Session 400 or Nashville 400. James Wood, RIP, always kept it in top shape for me. I don't use it much any more, but plan to hang on to it. It's a good amp. Turns out it out lasted me.

Tube and solid state amps are different animals, each having its own pros and cons. I appreciate the finer qualities of both. I love my Peavey amps just as much, tho' they don't have quite as much mojo as the Twin.

YMMV, and all that.

[Mark Fasbender]

anyone use a super twin amp? i like mine but need to solve a few issues.anyone have any experience with a super twin amp ?

[Dave Hopping]

Mark,I had a Super Twin in the late '70s.I was just starting to play steel then,so I don't remember much more than that it seemed OK for that instrument.As a six-string amp it was very clean and very loud(and very heavy!).The only guitar that would make it growl even a little was my LP Standard with DiMarzio Dual Sound pickups.That guitar and the ST are long gone,but I've always thought there was some untapped PSG potential.I'd really like to lay hands on a ST and find out.

[Bill Hatcher]

considering lloyd green used one for a long time.....

[Scott Appleton]

Carry a spare 12at or 12au with you and learn which tube to switch out on TR. so the next time you do a backline TR just switch the tube out ... you now have a much cleaner note .. not louder sound .. works for any 12ax7 based pre amp ..

[Bill Moran]

Every steel player will go through this sometime or other. It is not the Twin Reverb. To get your sound use your equipment.
I played a set with a band a year or so ago and the sound sucked. Great guitar and a Peavey amp. I blamed the Peavey ! LOL
No matter who wants you to sit in or use the house equipment DON'T DO IT. You will be sorry. Everyone will want to know " Who was that dud ".

[David Doggett]

Yeah, all the modern Twins since the silver-face era seem to be poor imitations of the lower powered black-face twins. They don't have the power and clean tone one needs for pedal steel with a volume pedal. The best Twins for steel are the ultra-linear 135 watt late silver-face master volume Twins that guitar players scorn. I have been in situations in loud clubs with no amp mics where even that was not enough. I solved that with a Super Twin Reverb in a head cab. There's another thread about it here: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=225954 .

[Bill Moran]

Anyone that plays PSG should know, PLAY YOUR OWN EQUIPMENT ! Ben there and done that. Play your own stuff or be burned.

[Roual Ranes]

Eons of time ago, I used a twin. I replace the 12's with a 15" JBL and that helped. One night I had the chance to use a Session 400 and that did it. Monday I looked for a Session 400 but wound up with an LTD that I used for years...........wish I still had it.

[Tom Wolverton]

I wish I had read this thread before today. I played a festival today and they had TR reissue amps for backline. It was a terrible sound. I couldn't keep the amp from breaking up. Especially on the low notes. I'm going to tattoo this to my arm: "Never, ever, ever, ever trust a backline amp. Bring your own!"

[Bob Hoffnar]

One thing to try with back line ri twins is to plug into the 2nd input. It is slightly attenuated and might fix the overdriven sound. I have used plenty of ri twins and found they do the job fine. I prefer a well set up silver face but have found the reissues to be consistent. I put the tone controls at
Treble : 4
Mids: 9 or 10
Bass: 3 or 4

Volume never above 4
Brite switch off

By turning the bass all the way up you create frequencys in the low registers that are not audible more than 5 feet from the amp. They also muddy up a mix so they don' t make it into the PA or mix usually. Those low frequencies feel good to the player but the real meat of the useful part of the tone is in the mids. Plus with a twin the highs can really spike if you are not very careful with you picking. You need to be careful with that no matter how you set your tone controls.

[Brad Sarno]

Great advice Bob. Cranking the bass often turns into a waste of power and a muddied tone. It can make a Twin seem underpowered when really it's just wasting its power on unnecessary lows that could be better used for much more loudness and clarity in the midrange and treble.

The Twin is pretty definitive for legendary steel tone. Sure did fine for Buddy Emmons on the Black Album, tons of Lloyd stuff, and years and years of Tom Brumley's sound. Jerry Byrd too. To name a few. If you can't get a Twin to sound right, then maybe it needs a tune-up, maybe it needs JBL's, or maybe it just needs to be dialed in properly.


B

[Brad Sarno]

One more thing. I don't consider the new Re-Issue Twins to be in the same category as a real Twin Reverb amp.

B

[Tom Wolverton]

LOL. I did the reverse of your advice. I only had about 10 min to set everything up:

Bright sw: on
Input no. 1
Treble: 4
Mids: 0
Bass: 7

Fuzz city. The Earthdrive with my lap steel sounded great, just not my PSG.

Thanks for the hints. It was a good bitter lesson for me. : )

Note to self: Learn to enjoy a plate of humble pie and keep my sense of humor intact.

[Tom Wolverton]

I seem to recall Ricky Davis suggesting the Bright sw on and the mids off. Didn't seem to work for me. Input no. 2 probably would have helped a lot too. Oh well.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Ricky and many other players do the opposite of me also. They sound great and it works for them so go figure...

[Aaron Goldstein]

Just wanted to chime in to say, I'm on a tour where I've been playing a different backline Twin every night, and had been playing those reissues through the normal channel, bright off, everything at 5. Sometimes I'd luck out and get a silverface w/master volume and I'd start with the same setting and tweak as necessary, usually bumping bass up to 6.

Then I read the above about pulling the mids all the way out. Tried it last night and tonight, and it worked like a charm. Bright off, volume 5, treb 4, mid 1, bass 8. Best tone I've had all tour. I am also not crazy about the reissues, I find them generally lacking in body (the Deluxes and Supers too) but the fact is, every backline company has them stockpiled no matter where you go in the world, so it's something easy and relatively reliable.

Give me my old hand-wireds and 15" speakers any day...but when you're stuck with one of these reissues as you so often will be, just wanna say that tweaking it as suggested above really worked for me these past couple nights. I guess I have Donny to thank for that, so thank you sir. Waiting to try it on a SF amp, we'll see if I end up with one this weekend.

[Tom Wolverton]

Aaron, do you plug into the #2 input jack?

[Aaron Goldstein]

Tom, I hadn't yet seen the post suggesting the second input. But it's something I'm going to try on Friday in soundcheck. I've got gigs Fri, Sat and Sun, all on different backline Twins. I'll come back with the full report on things I tried. I am reading with interest the posts re: the swapping out of the first preamp tube and those changes make sense to me, however not always entirely practical.

My backline request, for the record, reads: Fender Twin Reverb amp (not "Twin Amp"), in order of preference: silverface model OR "Custom 15" model OR '65 Reissue model. I only once got a Custom 15, on a tour of Western Canada about two years ago. However I think the amp was malfunctioning so I didn't really get to test a proper specimen.

On this tour I've seen a few silverface amps and even a couple '80-'81 return-to-blackface amps (pre-Rivera). I use a Boss Super-Overdrive to grit things up in some of the more non-traditional parts of the set, and while I find the silverface amps to handle it nicely, my tone just sounds thin and gritty and shitty when using the pedal with the reissue amps.

I think the other thing we have to consider here, and I apologize if I've missed somebody else making a similar comment, but we are not all after the exact same tone! Am I right? Even amongst guys who play nothing but straight honky-tonk, they will have different tastes for how they want things to sound. I would steer clear of a Fender reissue if I was looking to purchase a new amp - I find there really is a difference when an amp is hand-wired and those are the amps I stick to. However they must be working for some people.

I'm reminded of something I read about Nels Cline, lead guitarist with Wilco. He said he can make any backline amp sound the way he wants, as long as he's got his Klon Centaur overdrive and his Boss Compressor-Sustainer. We steelers are at a bit of a disadvantage, because so much of a six-stringer's tone comes from the fretting hand. However I'd like to think that if the backline amp can get me halfway there, that I too can persevere through a gig.

[Tim Marcus]

you are right - a lot of the tone is in the hands.

that said, an amp that is not functioning properly or not designed properly can do some harm to what you are sending it.

I consider myself to be particularly spoiled - but I can usually get a usable sound out of those clock radio things.

I have also got a usable sound out of a Blues Jr, a Deville and a few of those other blue new fender amps. It can be done - but its certainly not ideal.

My technique:I crank the low end, dime the master, kill the presence, use a reverb pedal (onboard reverb on those new fender amps is some pretty scary stuff), dime the mids, and only ever touch the treble and volume knob. Usually the treble is at 2-3 and the volume is just enough so that I can hear myself over the band.

[Josh Yenne]

yea... "always play your own gear" is a great mantra if you never have to play through supplied backline.

On my current tour I'm lucky enough that I'm traveling with Gear Heads and I know they've gone to great lengths to score quality backline.

I basically do the same thing as TIm though...starting with diming the Bass for the most part... I always have my Matchbox on my leg too which helps tremendously with quick tonal tweaks after the show has started.