Bar dings: repairable?

[Lane Gray]

OK, so I have this purty lacquered 77 MSA S-12. No checking or hazing of the finish, so a total refinishing sounds like a misapplication of resources, be it time or money.
But it has some bar dings, about 7 of them, like these two:



Can I retouch these spots? If so, how?
Or is the answer to live with them til I want it refinished totally?
Given the time I'm devoting to the underside, I'd rather have a successful retouching of the dings. Ideas?

[Craig Schwartz]

Lane , ask a local furniture repair guy or antique dealer or call sears or any goliath furniture outfit, ask who warrantees there furniture , they have guys that are amazing with doctoring up a new piece of furniture thats dented, you know what I`m talkin about?

Good luck
EDIT: one other place ,an upholstry shop, there constantly repairing, OK

[Joey Ace]

Everything's repairable, for a price.

I wouldn't bother, as it would just make the next ding look worse.

If you want to DIY, here's what the pros use:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_s ... r_Kit.html

Instructions for use are provided in a link of that page.

[John Billings]

Lane,
I'd say just leave them go for now. If you try to touch them up with something that might penetrate into the wood, you may have problems when you do refinish. However, to me, with all the work you're doing, now is the perfect time to refin. With the lacquer stripped off the guitar, and down to bare wood, you may be able to steam out the actual dented wood. Very hot iron, damp rag. I've used that technique for many, many years. Used to be an antique furniture and firearm restorer.
But right now, just get some of that Meguiare's Swirl Remover 2.0, and go over the body. It's so easy to do, and it will remove most of the scratches seen in your pic. Rub in one direction only, and use pieces of old, soft T-shirt. You'll be amazed at the difference!

Edited to add; Lane, about my S-10 in your other thread. The body was not refinished. Only the area next to the low string tuners was refinished. The rest of the body was done up with the swirl remover, and then Show Car Glaze.

[Lane Gray]

That sounds good, John.
I assume careful sanding on the back side of the ding to remove the hill of lacquer first, like with a very high number, before Swirl remover?

And hell, all I'm doing is cleaning it before I rerod it. Catching up on maintenance.

I read those instructions, Mike. Slightly daunting.

[Michael Yahl]

On the laquered MSA's, all of the graphics (fret markers, border detailing, logo) are all silk screened on. Sanding on those areas will damage the graphics if you penetrate the top layer of laquer. They CANNOT be replaced as the screens and the artwork are long gone.

I had a discussion with Reece about this as I was considering purchasing the screens to reproduce the graphics, but he said they were gone.

The only option is to duplicate the designs on decals but that can be quite pricey for one offs and Reece didn't remember just how many different border designs there had been.

[John Billings]

Lane,
I don't think I'd sand anything right now. As my Mom used to say, "Johnny! Don't pick at that scab, or it will never heal!" The kit is nice, but it's $120. You could refinish the body yourself for probably half of that. If you do any sanding, you'll have to use compounds to rub it out, and it will end up lookin' different from the rest of the body. Just go wild with the swirl remover. That'll clean up, brighten, and shine up the body. At least try that first. It's cheap, and you'll be very happy with the results. That S-10 was way mo gunked up than your guitar, and look how it came out. Still,,,,,,,,, it's the perfect time to refin! I take my endplates and pedal rack to a plating and polishing shop. They have a big wheel that is the best way to get a non-streaky finish, All other parts I polish on my bench-mount buffer.

[John Billings]

Michael makes a very good point about the silk-screened fingerboard. I wonder if someone could take a photo, black out the wood, blow it up to full size, and have it printed onto clear mylar or something similar???????

Edit; If that could be done, a new silk screen could even be made. But the fotoshop skills are beyond me. But,,, I have seen Brightman do that sort of work. Takes a while, but would be worth it!

[Erv Niehaus]

I would try daubing some clear lacquer into the ding.
Chances are it would enhance the underlying color and it would fill up the depression.

[John Billings]

That's a good idea too Irv. Certainly worth a try. First, just do one,,, the most inconspicuous one to see how well it comes out.

[Erv Niehaus]

I bought a Gibson lap steel a few years ago and it had a really bad ding on the top. I kept daubing in clear lacquer until I filled it up.

[Ross Shafer]

repairing dings like these is really pretty easy using what's called a "drop/fill' technique if only the clear coat is what's damaged and the material is indeed nitro-cellulose lacquer. Here's another Stew Mac link that gives a quick rundown:
www.stewmac.com/tradesecrets/ts0040_lacquerfill.hzml

I've done this many times and in many cases its impossbe to tell anything was ever damaged...a few important tips I've learned are;

-Once you've filled the ding (as per the link) let it dry for 1 to 3 weeks before doing the final leveling and sanding...lacquer shrinks more than you can imagine. I've had good luck using lacquer that's been allowed to thicken up some before applying....fresh lacquer (depending on how much its been thinned of course) can be super thin and it takes lots of drops.

-the micro mesh pads when used correctly are super helpful. If you don't get them you can get wet dry sandpaper at a good auto paint supply house that goes up to 2500. Sanding with slightly soapy water or using naptha instead of water works great. If you use the micro mesh pads and go through all the grits, it'll polish up super quick

-its really easy to sand the surrounding area too low and risk going through the finish.....so be careful...scraping the filled area to level is a really good way to help avoid sanding the surrounding area too much, as per my first tip, wait longer than you'll probably want to to let it dry and shrink!

[John Billings]

When I was doing ancient cap and ball gunstocks, I'd run into dings and voids around old knots. I'd put a capful of whatever oil I was using, under a light bulb until it thickened up. Then daub that thick goo into the void. Worked perfectly.

[Ross Shafer]

repairing dings like these is really pretty easy using what's called a "drop/fill' technique if only the clear coat is what's damaged and the material is indeed nitro-cellulose lacquer. Here's another Stew Mac link that gives a quick rundown:
www.stewmac.com/tradesecrets/ts0040_lacquerfill.hzml

I've done this many times and in many cases its impossbe to tell anything was ever damaged...a few important tips I've learned are;

-Once you've filled the ding (as per the link) let it dry for 1 to 3 weeks before doing the final leveling and sanding...lacquer shrinks more than you can imagine. I've had good luck using lacquer that's been allowed to thicken up some before applying....fresh lacquer (depending on how much its been thinned of course) can be super thin and it takes lots of drops.

-the micro mesh pads when used correctly are super helpful. If you don't get them you can get wet dry sandpaper at a good auto paint supply house that goes up to 2500. Sanding with slightly soapy water or using naptha instead of water works great. If you use the micro mesh pads and go through all the grits, it'll polish up super quick

-its really easy to sand the surrounding area too low and risk going through the finish.....so be careful...scraping the filled area to level is a really good way to help avoid sanding the surrounding area too much, as per my first tip, wait longer than you'll probably want to to let it dry and shrink!

[Ray Montee]

Jeff once suggested I use a little dab of clear fingernail polish on the damaged site.

It seemed to work and the chip didn't expand any.

[chris ivey]

leave the dings. they show that the steel has been given the ultimate compliment of being played! maybe even a bar fight or two. the dings will become friends with the later dings to come. that's a really neat looking steel! play that sucker!

[richard burton]

In my opinion, the sound a pedal steel makes is more important than what it looks like.

The paintwork on my Marlen is chipped and scratched, and there are screwholes in the front apron, and that's just how it's going to stay, refinishing is not going to happen

[Erv Niehaus]

I won't play an ugly guitar, the player is enough!

[Richard Rice]

Lane, I have almost 5 decades of experience with these types of repairs, and I would suggest you leave well enough alone for the time being. A touchup on a gloss surface is a can o' worms waiting to happen. The wood isn't going anywhere, the dings are part of the instrument's history. Damaged but not abused finishes will retain their value more than refin jobs. The other thing to consider is if you need to ask the question here, you are already not qualified to do a professional job, and anything less is, well, less. Not a put-down in any case, but I have fought with these things my whole life. I still have troubles with them when somebody else messed with it first. Better to live with them, and enjoy your beautiful instrument.

There ya go, a nickels worth of free advice..

[Geoff Cline]

Lane, I have almost 5 decades of experience with these types of repairs, and I would suggest you leave well enough alone for the time being. A touchup on a gloss surface is a can o' worms waiting to happen. The wood isn't going anywhere, the dings are part of the instrument's history. Damaged but not abused finishes will retain their value more than refin jobs. The other thing to consider is if you need to ask the question here, you are already not qualified to do a professional job, and anything less is, well, less. Not a put-down in any case, but I have fought with these things my whole life. I still have troubles with them when somebody else messed with it first. Better to live with them, and enjoy your beautiful instrument.

There ya go, a nickels worth of free advice..

THIS TIMES A THOUSAND

[John Billings]

Just use the swirl remover. Be happy! Have a clean guitar, with many fewer scratches. Take you an hour at most.

[Kevin Mincke]

I recall Lynn Stafford saying he did as Ross has mentioned "Drop fill" on an old Sho~Bud he refurbed. I saw pictures of it after & it still makes me want to send my original 1976 Pro III out to him
Took care of all the cracking & hazing on his as well & black to boot!!

[Lane Gray]

I actually appreciate that advice, Richard.
But as to the value, I don't see a lacquered 77 MSA ever approaching the value of, for example, a Mullen.
In the gummed-up condition I bought it, I paid a grand for a $900 guitar.
After (probably) $300 in parts and (probably) 70-120 hours of labor (I'm not very time-efficient), without anything on the finish, I'll have a $1500 guitar that'll sit on the market awhile to get that (how many folks WANT a 10 and 5 or 6 U-12 that don't already have one?).
If I were to have it properly redone (I'm not enough of an artist to duplicate the silkscreened logos or fretboard) to have a finish as snazzy as Boo's or James', I don't see it exceeding $1800. And it'd wait even longer to fetch THAT.
Therefore, any repairs would happen for MY sake. Fortunately, should I want to do that, I have a lightly dinged up $60 Washburn Stratoclone (it has a nut extender, makes a decent 6-string lap steel) to practice on, not touching a steel until I had an invisible repair.
My ex-wife, back when we were dating, had taught me some simple auto finish repairs (rust spots on her 7-year old Camaro as old as my MSA), and I actually did a few that were invisible, so I think I have the attention to detail.
Even if I never attempt to market said skill, I think it'd be cool to be able to say "I fixed that."

Those ones on the neck are staying, though, other than the swirl remover. Not gonna risk getting into the silkscreen.
Hell, if I can't get an invisible repair on the Stratoclone (I can't damage the value of a hundred dollar guitar all that much when I've drilled holes in the edges for mounting strap buttons to wear it Dobro style), all the others will stay, too.

The economic argument didn't cut anything: the "your results are gonna disappoint you" was pretty effective.

[Richard Rice]

I'll be happy to help talk you through it, Lane- there are some things you should be hip to. A CA glue fill will build more quickly than lacquer, and not shrink back like lacquer will. Also don't just sand it flat, when it's dry and hard put a piece of tape on both ends of a utility knife blade (not in a handle) to scrape it almost perfectly flush without damaging the surrounding area. Once it is nice and flush, wetsand using fresh wet or dry paper and naptha. Keep water away from the repair, in case there is a slight chance the moisture can get into the edge of your fill, swelling the wood underneath and lifting your repair. You will want to seal it with a lacquer based product like Deft sanding sealer, let it cure, wetsand again, then a gentle topcoat of Deft clear gloss. That can be finessed into the existing lacquer with 2000 grit and then Micromesh. Make sure you let that lacquer sit for about a month before doing this, it will take that long to cure and harden. Ask me more when you wish. (847)361-0968

Rich

[Joseph Meditz]

Lane, if that little old ding is bothering you just get some furniture finish repair kit to fill it and match the color. If you're not satisfied with it mask around it and sand with very light sand paper. Then get a can of rattle can lacquer and spray it lightly and then rub it with 600 grit paper. Then 0000 steel wool it and then put on the final coat of lacquer. All you want is for the repair to be acceptable. You're not going to call in a gemologist to inspect it.

I just lacquered with rattle cans just a few months ago for the very first time. It's really easy. Just keep the coats light. I then rubbed it with brown and then white auto compound and then polished it with Zymol. Why Zymol? It was either that or Simonize. That's all I had in the garage.

This was an enlightening experience. I can now say that there has been an aura of fear built up around lacquering as though it is a black art that requires years of practice and expensive professional spraying equipment in a spraying shop. OK. For a car worthy of Barrett-Jackson, yes. For ordinary people no. You only need:

1. Some rattle cans of lacquer
2. A $30 tent from Walmart to put outside for good ventilation and to keep the dust out.
3. A good gas mask, the type with the canisters.

Start by experimenting on a small piece of scrap wood. Spray outside when the wind is not up. If you like the result then get the tent. Then spray when the wind is blowing to provide ventilation.

Good luck,
Joe