C6th - Losing the 10th String

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jun 2002 9:36 am

I've been playing C6th (actually D6th) for 3 or 4 years now, and I find that I rarely use or need the 10th string. Also, I often feel the need for a middle D (7th string) between the C and E.

I know that Dan Tyack and Bob Hoffnar have both gone this route. Has anyone else here sacrificed their the 10th string to add a string in the middle? Pros and cons?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 19 Jun 2002 9:55 am

I did that on my 12 string Universal Fessy by leaving the 9th string D and lowering it to C# for B6, then I got a 13 string to get the low B back. Truthfully, I haven't spent enough time with the extra C# (D in C6) to make it really useful, and spend more time trying to stay away from it.

After playing two tunings for 30+ years, it's tough changing anything.

I have even more respect for Buddy Emmons (and you too b0b) to still be experimenting with new tunings.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Jun 2002 10:36 am

My experience mirrors Jim's -- except I never went as far as having a 13-banger built. I tried removing the 12th and adding a C# for several months and felt really handicapped.

I DO use that low string. I understand the criticisms that it interferes with the frequency range of the bass, but I've never had a bass player complain. The timbre I use is so different from his that they seem to reinforce each other, rather than interfere. I really don't use it that often, but I've really become accustomed to having the low root tone on the 6th tuning component of my universal guitars. It really gets used when I occasionally play something solo.

I've been playing 'standard C6', except on a universal, for so many years I find it hard to unlearn all the low voiced string grips and never found having the C#/D string to be that great a boon to single string patterns, since I'm so used to moving my bar to get those notes. Maybe I'm just an old fogie, but I think I'll keep my low B string.

Just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 19 June 2002 at 11:41 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Jun 2002 1:35 pm

Has anyone else here sacrificed their the 10th string to add a string in the middle? Pros and cons?

Are you looking for answers only from Forumties who have tried it both ways, or can a C6 player respond, even if he never tried putting a "D" in the middle?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Jun 2002 2:04 pm

Don't I recall Buddy Emmons talking about it on the forum. And isn't he experimenting with a 12 sring with a D in between the middle C and the bottom E?

Or am I incorrect. The note is needed in the scale often. But to me it messes up TOO many other things to do it. Now in the case of putting the D on top instead of the G, now that makes since but I would never want it between the top C and E notes for the same reason.

I will tell you of a pedal change I dearly love however, and that is to raise the 9th string (D10-C6) to a G. That F note while being very necessary sometimes, is OUT of place when talking strictly in terms of a the root major chord in a given key.

Pulling it to a G fills that need. And makes for a great bass run with the thumb too.

carl

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 19 Jun 2002 2:47 pm

Yes, Buddy is experimenting with the middle D, and has been as far back as 1977. Ernie has tab called Shades of '77 here: http://www.buddyemmons.com/shades.htm

Here's the explanation from that page:

BUDDY HAD A PEDAL THAT WOULD RAISE STRING 7 FROM C TO D, 8 FROM A TO C, 9 FROM F TO A, AND 10 FROM C TO F. HE TOOK IT OFF BECAUSE OF UNDUE STRESS TO THE STRINGS AND TO HIS LEG FROM HOLDING THE PEDAL DOWN.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 19 Jun 2002 2:55 pm

b0b - As I mentioned in my e-mail to you, I recently converted my Mullen S-12 from E9/B6 to an extended E9. I added the D in the 9th string slot and dropped the low B in slot 12.

I still have the B6 pedals, though. I guess now I have and ExtE9/B6. With the knee-lever that lowers the E's to D#'s, I also lower the D to C#. It works well for single note riffs, but I'm having a tough time changing my string grips.

I don't play the 6th tuning that much or that well, so I'll probably leave things the way they are and see what happens.

By the way, look at the final issue of Steel Guitar World Magazine and read the interview with Susan Alcorn. She dropped the lower C and added the middle D many years ago and likes it real well.

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Lee, from South Texas

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jun 2002 4:27 pm

Jeff, I welcome feedback from anyone who plays C6th.

Of you folks who say you use the low C so much that you wouldn't want to do without, how many of you use the C6th exclusively for western swing and/or traditional jazz? Are any of you using the C6 for rock, new age or "world" music?

On the extended E9th, I often block the middle F# with by left thumb when I do "thumb sweeps". I expect that I would use the same technique if I had a middle D on the back neck. To me, avoiding it won't be a big issue. I'm mostly concerned about what I'd lose in the low end. Maybe I should just take off the 10th string for a few months and see how much I really miss it, without adding the middle D...

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 19 Jun 2002 6:44 pm

My 10th string is usually an E, followed by G, A, C, etc. On my 11 string, the 11th string is C, for power chords. The D in the middle makes a lot of sense for soloing, but it breaks up the symmetry for chords.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Jun 2002 6:57 pm

There are several reasons I would not give up the low C note on my D-10 or B note on my U-12.

But one of the biggest is, I don't play western swing. But I do play a lot of music on C6(B6). I play like I believe Jerry Byrd might have played IF, he had ever gone to pedals.

I have always loved the way he could play ANY Kind of music on C6 and it NEVER sounded like western swing. A good example is his "HI FI Guitar" album. A simply incredible rendition of WHAT can be played on this fantastic tuning.

And on his D-8 built by Shot Jackson his tunings are:

E
C
A
G
E
C#
C
A (LOW LOW A-same as the 8th pedal 10th string on a C6 PSG)

E
C
B
A
G
F
E

Because I use that low A note like Jerry does almost like a Bass thump for ehancement, I must have that bottom note be a C (B on my U-12). So that I can drop it a tone and a half to an A. I don't use it like BE does in "Night Life".

But since I have a pedal that raises the 9th string D-10 (11th string U-12), a whole tone, it allows me to do a thumb roll like the background in the original hit song "Canadian Sunset". I simply could not do with out this.

Finally, the 5th pedal D note on the 10th string to me is an absolute must to give me a root note on the bottom for this incredible 9th chord two frets down from any major chord position.

In a word I play C6 like JB , and get all the chords Jerry does but without slanting the bar. Plus, with the big bottom it makes me really enjoy this type of C6 playing.

Not for everyone of course. But for me it is a winner.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 19 June 2002 at 08:00 PM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 19 June 2002 at 08:05 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 19 Jun 2002 7:01 pm

Chas wrote:

The D in the middle makes a lot of sense for soloing, but it breaks up the symmetry for chords.

I think the .034" D string makes many more chords easy or playable, and adds symmetry . But then I like a .016" D string as well for a pentatonic tuning.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 19 Jun 2002 9:07 pm

I have tried that D between the C and E on my D10,amd F# between the E and G# on my E6th 12 string tuning.

I found that as has been mentioned by others, that it interferes with the well established Grips for the jazz chords.

For single string solos, you can always pick that note either way going up or down.

I wouldn't part with the Low C on the 10th string on C6, or Low E on my 12 string on E6.

Curly Chalker had the low C on his C6 10string and also a low D on his 9th string and the F on the 8th string.
Reece Anderson used a bottom configuration like that too on his Bb6th tuning....al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 19 June 2002 at 10:15 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Jun 2002 9:36 pm

b0b,
I have several thoughts on this, but it’s difficult to organize them. First of all, I would say that, as you obviously know, your playing style and the kinds of music you want to play would certainly have a bearing on your copedent generally, and the middle “D” specifically. If you like it, and have no interest in the 10th string “C” note, that’s probably all that matters. However, with respect to my musical interests and playing style, I can comment on what I feel the low “C” note offers, and why I don’t feel the middle “D” is something that belongs in the tuning.
My main interests in playing C6 are working out arrangements of the pop/jazz standards, Western swing, and improvising (I can’t comment on classical or rock with respect to C6.). With respect to arranging pop/jazz standards, myself as well as other players, for a number of reasons, tend to think in terms of piano sensibilities (rather than 6-string guitar), and one thing that pianos have is an extended bass capability. By removing the 10th string, you greatly limit yourself in terms of this musical dynamic. So, IMO, if your interest tends toward creating your own arrangements of pop/jazz songs, you will want the range of notes and increased chord voicings and dynamics that the 10th string “C” note provides. As far as not having the middle “D” note, this is not missed in pop/jazz arrangements for the simple reason that it doesn’t even fit the theoretical constructs of how chords are built out of stacked thirds. When you build a “C” chord in jazz-based chord theory, you stack the notes from bottom up as follows: C,E,G,B. You’ll notice that from the 7th string up, with pedal 7 pressed down, those are the notes you get on the open fret, a C major 7th. For a dominant 7th, raise the 4th string A to Bb (all jazz players MUST have that change). Furthermore, jazz theory says to make the minor 7, just lower E to Eb on pedal 6, and raise the A note to a Bb. To get the minor 7b5 (half diminished), press pedals 5,6 and raise the 4th string A note to Bb. To get the diminished 7 (full diminished), press pedals 5,6. The point is that all 5 qualities of the 7th, the absolutely most vital chord structures in jazz, are readily available. Nowhere is the middle “D” note applicable in this. If you put that note in the middle of the tuning, it is IN THE WAY. If you play arpeggios, something that pianists love to do, and something I do a lot of when arranging on C6, the middle D would be in the way constantly. IMO, it does not belong in the middle of a jazz constructed tuning, and if I had it there, I would spend an enormous amount of energy finding ways to avoid it when playing arrangements, especially with complex arpeggios, where my attention is to string fingerings and combinations, and should not be to trying to avoid the same string all the time.
Next, on the subject of Western swing, I think that the 10th string “C” note is played mostly for effect (“boo-wah”, etc.) I think you could lose it. Also, I think you could put the middle “D” note in since it gives you an extra major scale note, and Western swing lines are mostly major scale based with the occasional “color” note thrown in. This is NOT the same as playing jazz stylings, which many players base on modal/scale concepts. In that respect, I think you will encounter some of the same issues as I mentioned with pop/jazz arrangements. Since jazz scales are based on jazz chords, you will find that having the middle “D”, which is not part of the jazz chord structures, would also not be part of some of the jazz scales, and would have to be avoided during certain passages. If the middle “D” is not there, and you are improvising against a jazz scale which is built on a jazz chord, then there are no avoid notes when playing the chord. I will admit though that it is easier to deal with the middle “D” when improvising than when creating arrangements since the middle “D” will sometimes be in the scale, while not in the chord.
Well, those are my initial thoughts and ramblings. Bottom line for me: If you play jazz/pop, you need the 10th string “C”, and do not want a middle “D”. If you are playing ONLY Western swing, and no jazz, I probably could go either way with it.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jun 2002 10:34 pm

Thanks for the analysis, Jeff. While I do play some western swing, I don't have much interest currently in playing traditional jazz on the steel. I use 4 picks, and am comfortable with 4-note grips that skip strings. I also play a lot of pentatonic scales in rock and new age music, and I think that the D note would be useful there. That's why I'm thinking of dropping the low C.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 20 Jun 2002 12:07 am

I have found that the middle D tuning has been working for me. A bunch of jazz guys these days are mostly playing poly chords and that is all about the placement of triads with some other note(not necessarily the "right" one at the bottom of the voicing) . The extentions are often based on a quartal concept of tonality so having a pentatonic scale right under your fingers comes in handy.

I'm still working on this so I would be very interested to hear what Mike Cass has to say about that middle D note. He recently switched and seems to be way into it.

Terry Crisp has been using that middle D tuning for a long time also.

The biggest sacrifice as I see it is in the range of the steel. Sometimes its nice to drop down low with that fat C string.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 20 June 2002 at 02:14 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Jun 2002 5:54 am

Terry Crisp has been using that middle D tuning for a long time also

Curly had an extra bass string because he knew how important it was. Doug Jernigan uses the 10th string in his arrangements ALL THE TIME. Those players, IMO, define the use of the steel in a jazz/pop standards context. They would never be without a bass extension capability, because they understand the importance of the range of notes. If you aren't into arranging the standards, then it probably isn't as important to have that note. If you mostly improvise, and play simple background chords, it seems like you would not need it as much. But always keep in mind that the bass note defines the scale sound of the chord, WAY WAY more than an upper register note. If you take away bass capability, you rely almost exclusively on the bass player to define the scale center of your playing. A jazz pianist would never do that. Why should we if we don't have to?

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 20 Jun 2002 6:18 am

When I had a d-10, I had the problem of having to sacrifice something for that middle D. I did remove the low C and put the D in there, and I would reccomend that move, if nothing else it will open your head up a bit. Since I am a c6th player, I traded in my d-10 for an s-12 GFI. I tune it like this(posted below)

I find that D in there is essential for modal playing and works well for chordal purposes, allowing semitones and tight "clusters". It will change the way you look at scales at patterns and allow you to design more efficient ones. It is a change from the more traditonal setup and will force a change in grips and avoidance of it at times. Fine. Get used to it and reap it's advantages.
If you closely at my tuning, you'll see I have the extended c6th in there. The B note up top gives you tremendous options in both chordal work and melodic playing. The scalar stuff really opens up. On a side note, when based off of the E string, I have the gut changes of the E9 tuning. My Ab knee lever acts as pedal B, pedal 5 acts as pedal A. Pedal 6 acts as the X knee lever giving me that minor triad in second inversion. And my Knee 4 acts as the F knee lever. That's as much country as I need. All of this falls within the huge scale networks of the c6th for combos between the two. It's taken hours of experimenting for me to get this right, especially having everything in the right spot physically so the changes work comfortably with each other. I have been working on developing an intricate, modal/scalar sound, the way Steve Kimock plays guitar, if you know his playing you know what I'm talking about. This is where it's at now. I'd like to give a big thumbs up to GFI for making guitars that are cake to work under, changes that can be made in a matter of minutes. Sorry for getting a little off topic.[This message was edited by James Winwood on 20 June 2002 at 08:19 AM.]

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 20 Jun 2002 6:25 am

--1--2--3--4--5--6--K1--K2--K3--K4
D----D#-----------------------------D#
E-------F-----------------------------F
C---------------------------C#
B-------------C#-Bb-----------Bb
A----------------------Ab
G----F#----F
E-------Eb----------------------------F
D
C-C#
A----------------------Ab
F-E--F#
C-A--D

-Sorry about the lines, without them everything gets squished on the left...[This message was edited by James Winwood on 20 June 2002 at 08:03 AM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 20 Jun 2002 7:08 am

A couple years back, I wrote something for the PSGA called The Greek Tuning. It described a set-up I had Bud Carter put on my new D-12. I could not deal with what I had him build so I finally removed it and went back to my B6th standard. Then I learned how much I had missed that low bottom string.

With 12 strings I could easily add the D inside but have always used two higher strings instead. Maybe it's true, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, at least not this old dog. But then again, I did manage a change from the Day set-up to Emmons on my extended E-9th neck.

I remember Bill Stafford saying somewhere about Alvino Ray wanting that big low bottom string and Bill himself uses a Chalker like bottom end himself so there is much to be said for that lowest of strings but it resolves into a personal, individual choice in the end.

Regards, Paul

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Jun 2002 7:14 am

I find that D in there is essential for modal playing and works well for chordal purposes,

At least your extended C6 copedent keeps the range of the C6 in place. As a general continuation of the discussion, my impression is that 70% of C6 improvisation work is done on the top half of the strings, where there is a "D" note. So, therefore, I do have a "D" note MOST of the time. And if the pattern of the note being physically between the C and E is so important, then the high "D" should be between the "C" (3rd string)and "E" (4th string) as well, right? Anyway, on perhaps 30% of improvisation, I would have to move down 2 frets for the one note, and for that, I am not willing to give up a 1/2 octave of range!! And as far as "chordal" work goes, I pointed out in my first post about how all the qualities of the 7th chord are readily available, and then immediately contaminated by the middle "D". I'm sure occasionally, I would find some use for the middle "D" there, but for that, I am adding the huge inconvenience of having an "avoid" note in most of the basic jazz chords, as well as giving up a 1/2 octave in range. I don't see it.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 20 June 2002 at 08:32 AM.]

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 20 Jun 2002 7:32 am

I don't see the "contaminated" thing clearly. The way I see it is, put it in there, put in the hours to get used to it and what it provides and then reap it's benefits. I have no problem avoiding that string because I trained myself. Sure, the strums aren't there but I don't use them. I also play modally across the whole tuning, not just the top strings. I frequently play right in the middle of the neck for the thicker timbre. I use the D for sus. applications and for altered dominant chords. Great b9 with pedal 5. There are lots of possibilites if you look.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 20 Jun 2002 7:34 am

I threw the E down to D change (C6) on with "P3". It gives a 6/9 chord in both C and F open.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Jun 2002 7:35 am

I think if I had an extended copedent, I might try putting the middle "D" on the lowest string, analygous to putting the high "D" on the highest string, in order to keep it out of the way of the basic tuning. Food for thought, no? It seems that there ought to be some consistency between how the high "D" and middle "D" would be applied since they serve basically the same purpose of providing a readily available major scale and semi-tone note, and have the same disadvantage of getting in the way of the jazz chords.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Jun 2002 7:47 am

I don't see the "contaminated" thing clearly. The way I see it is, put it in there, put in the hours to get used to it

Ok. Whatever.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 20 June 2002 at 08:49 AM.]

Jay Jessup · Post by **Jay Jessup** » 20 Jun 2002 7:53 am

I have always said that for most of us players the low C becomes more of a novelty than something we actaully need unless "streets Of Larado" and tunes like that are in your regular repetoire. I also find that it's hard to get a tone setting that makes it much better than mud if the rest of the guitar sounds OK.
So I took the low C off and put the D in between C and E on one of my guitars and ultimately have now decided that I don't like it. BUT here's a quick and easy way for everyone that's thinking about trying it to experiment without having to make a ton of pedal changes. Just take that low C off and put the D on in the 10'th string location, yes it's out of sequence but it doesn't get in the way of what you are already doing and even though it's use is awkward at least it's there under your thumb for when you want to see what it would do for you and if you decide you don't like it then it's only a matter of changing the string and not spending hours under your guitar.