aluminum crossbars.

Dave Frye · Post by **Dave Frye** » 18 Jun 2002 7:34 am

How many manufacturer used aluminm crossbars in the making of steel guitars. Is anybody still usein them. What are the advantages vs. disadvantages? Would they be ok on a 12 string, and so on------. Thanks Ole Dave Frye

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jun 2002 7:48 am

Dave,

Interesting question. I never gave it any thought until after I got my new U-12 which uses aluminum crossbars. Now I could write a thesis on it!!

In a word, they are NOT good. Reason: they have too much flex and twist capability as compared to a harder metal such as steel.

Let me tell you what I have fought for over 2 years now. My U-12 has several situations where a string is raised (or lowered) a half a tone and while holding that change I raise (or lower) the string a whole tone or a tone and a half.

So far so good. BUT, when that 2nd raise (or lower) is release the string is way sharp (or flat) of what it was before the second change.

Examples:

1. Lower the 8th string a half a tone. While holding it this way, lower the string another half tone and then release. The half tone lower is now WAY flat. So much so any body could hear it!

2. Raise 5 and 9 (10 on a D-10), a whole tone. Now while holding this change, raise the 9th string another half tone (tone and a hald total). Now release the second raise and BOTH 5 and 9 are now way sharp!

I simply hate BOTH scenarios. AND, I have others similar to it. It is driving me nuts. There are several solutions to the problem.

Some are compensators of course. But the real answer is to use a crossbar that has very little to no flex and/or twist capability.

Aluminum AINT the answer!!

It's the problem.

carl

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 18 Jun 2002 9:51 am

Aluminum AINT the answer!! It's the problem.

Yes, it is Carl. But I'm still unable to see why so many players and manufactures are so concerned about cutting so much weight. A pedal steel guitar does not have to fly. But since there is, it seems, such an obsession with weight, there is a better approach:

Cables:

If we could ever erase the word, "FENDER" from our minds when we speak of cables, we could have a lighter weight guitar and at the same time erase the hardware nightmare of today's undercarriage.

Levers? No problem. Slack in cables? No problem. Universal system? No problem. Any bonuses? The thickness (vertical) of the cabinet can be cut by 1&1/2" from the thinnest I've seen, so far.

Aircraft manufacturers run cables 30 feet and more with very precision movement (no slack). And they use cables smaller and lighter than those on the (here comes that word again) FENDER pedal guitars.

Picture this:

A knurled head screw for each pedal along the back apron of the guitar, which can be adjusted for cable tension from the players sitting position. The cable tension is adjusted by eccentrically mounted carbon fiber pulleys with aircraft bearings.

Cables are not moved to change to a different copedant, unless you change to another bank of strings (double ten).The pedal tuning screws, which will be mounted and adjusted from the top of the guitar (without a wrench) will lock the strings not being pulled.

...no levers, no rods, no cross-shafts, no bell cranks, None.

The ultimate universal system for pedal steel guitars will be created with aircraft control cables. I'm convinced that this is an absolute certainty.

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 18 June 2002 at 10:55 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 18 Jun 2002 10:18 am

A pedal steel guitar does not have to fly.

I'd like to see all pedal steels in the case come in under the 75 pound limit of the airlines so we wouldn't have to pay overweight fees. Two cases would help, but my poor old Dekley body by itself weighs around 70 pounds without the case, legs and rods!

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 18 Jun 2002 12:11 pm

Jim, steel guitars in the case, as airline luggage, should fall under the 75lb. overweight limit (without a surcharge). Dekley body, 70 pounds? That kind of weight is absurd. Absurd also is the Thomas guitar. My friend has a Thomas. It is mostly stainless steel. You would think that you are lifting a load of concrete blocks when you pick it up.

Most lighter weight, more efficient, mechanic and electrical innovations have come from the aerospace industry. Now that MSA has taken the lead; I believe we are now at a threshhold of tecnological improvements for the PSG.

Rick

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 18 Jun 2002 12:17 pm

There are lots of places to economize on weight of a pedal steel. Unless you find some lightweight material that is equally (or more) rigid and durable as the steel alloys that is not going to be prohibitively expensive, I'd look somewhere other than the cross shafts to reduce weight.

Just my opinion (and I never built a pedal steel, but I have played one or two)

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 18 Jun 2002 12:17 pm

The 10 pedals and 12 knee levers on my D-12 Dekley contribute a lot to the extra weight.

I guess I "might" be able to get by with less.

It would be nice though to have a guitar that loaded and still be under the weight limit, or maybe we could just lobby the airlines to increase the weight limit for us poor steel pickers!

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 18 Jun 2002 1:02 pm

I'd look somewhere other than the cross-shafts to reduce weight.

Not a place "other than" the cross shafts; but other places and the cross-shafts included.

It will be done;___it's just a matter of when.

Rick

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 18 Jun 2002 1:34 pm

The 10 pedals and 12 knee levers on my D-12 Dekley contribute a lot to the extra weight.

That's a lot of solid round bar plus attachments. It also requires a lot of personal memory.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Jun 2002 2:35 pm

One of the things I plan to do to my '73 MSA D10 is to replace all the crossrods (3/8" stainless) with aluminum. On guitars with a center support, I believe that 6061-T6 aluminum rod would work fine. There may be a wear issue (at the nylon bushings), but I believe it would work fine for many years. The weight added by all the steel crossrods (I have 16 pedals) is probably significant.

There have been many fine sounding steels, and bodies have been made of everything from wood, to bakelite, to aluminum, to various plastics and fiberglass. I tend to think that the configuration, and the way it's put together, is more important than the material it's made of, as far as sound goes.

But when you get into the "intricacies", each has it's subtle little affect. For instance, while studying the making of violins, I learned there is a different sound to the wood if it is hand-planed to shape, sanded to shape, or machine routed to shape. Same wood, same dimensions, but the way it's "worked" affects the sound and tone! Normally though, these subtle differences in sound and tone are noticed only by the makers and the players. The listeners usually can't tell a Stradivarius from an Amati, or a Steinway from a Bosendorfer.

In short, I think most all of us spend more time than we should worrying about sound and tone. Personally, I'd rather hear a "great player on an average instrument" than I would an "average player on a great instrument".

There's thousands of great steels out there, but not nearly enough great players.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 18 Jun 2002 9:38 pm

I believe that 6061-T6 aluminum rod would work fine.

Donny, you might want to look into 7075 with a big T number, it gets up around steel for strength and stiffness.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jun 2002 9:25 am

I think that the length of the crossbars is a factor as well. My Williams 400X has aluminum crossbars (I think), but they are very short due to the way that the crossover mechanism works. They don't span the whole width of the body - just the width of one neck. It seems to me that the shorter crossbars flex less, no?

I've never noticed a problem that I could attribute to crossbar flex. I do have a lever that lowers the middle E to D#, and another that lowers it to D. They are on the same knee, though, so I don't encounter scenario #1 from Carl's post above.

Carl, take a look at my Williams tunings. Where would you expect to see problems related to crossbar flex? I'll test it with a meter and post the results.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jun 2002 9:29 am

A pedal steel guitar does not have to fly.

Actually, it does, and when the weight is over the baggage limit, it becomes a big issue for many of us.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 19 Jun 2002 9:43 am

Actually, it does, and when the weight is over the baggage limit, it becomes a big issue for many of us.

...never thought I would ever have to define the word "fly" when used in this context

I was wrong:

A steel guitar does not have to fly, under it's own power.

"Now go and sin no more"

Rick

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 19 Jun 2002 9:49 am

b0b, your setup almost precludes having the problem. I agree that short shafts help a lot. Many guitars, including my Dekley have a "stabilizer" strip down the middle to brace the center of the cross shafts.

Please check your 2nd string. Lower it to D with RKR. While holding that lever, engage LKR to lower it to C#, then release LKR and see if your D note has changed. If you have shaft flex, the D note will be lower. To true it up, you'll have to release and engage RKR again. Try the same thing with your 8th string, but you'll have to hold one lever with your hand.

Dave Frye · Post by **Dave Frye** » 20 Jun 2002 8:16 am

Thanks guys for all the opinions, etc. I am goin to try aluminum crosshafts on my ole Marlen. OLe Dave Frye

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Jun 2002 9:39 pm

b0bby,

Sorry I did not check this thread since you asked me the question. I looked your copedent over and I did not see any situations where you may run into difficulty with crossbars flexing.

Bit of info. My U-12 has crossbars that mostly are just half way, because it is a single 12 on a 12-10 body. The only long rods are the knee levers on my left knee.

BUT even here they are supported in the middle and each end. The amount of flex (or twist) is so obviou that you can see the bellcranks actually move futher when a string is lowered a 2nd time while holding the first lower. Same for raises under this scenario.

The problem can be helped by putting a stop bar so that the first lower (or raise) is prevented from moving any further. But it messes up the pull rod area. And I don't want to do that.

So stainless steel crossbars appears to be the real answer. We will see.

carl