Help -- D-12-string pedal suggestions?

Fred Layman · Post by **Fred Layman** » 6 Jun 2002 8:44 pm

I picked up an early D-12 MSA from an estate sale a while back that I want to rehab with an all new changer mechanism and undercarriage when I can get some time from other building projects. It presently has a double-raise, double-lower changer and has four rows of holes drilled in the endplate for pedal tuning, two for raises and two for lowers.

But there is space to drill another set of holes between the rows and have a triple-raise, double-lower, or a double-raise,triple-lower, or any combination of five changes on any string.

I will be making the changer levers so I'm requesting information from you 12-string players as to where a triple-raise OR a triple-lower is needed (or you wish you had). The guitar has 10 pedals, so I could even have most or all of a Universal tuning on the front neck (by having a couple of pedals working on both necks).

So -- where should I have a triple-raise and where should I have a triple-lower on given strings? And what changes should be on a pedal and what should be on a knee lever? Have at it friends.

Gil Berry · Post by **Gil Berry** » 7 Jun 2002 5:11 am

Boy! You are opening a can of worms here! My 2 cents is that most likely a triple raise, double lower would be best option, and with a D12 you should go extended E9th on the front, extended C6th on the back .. the E9th neck adds low notes to standard 10 string E9, the C6 adds high....This in my, very amateurish, humble opinion...

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 7 Jun 2002 7:12 am

I started to think of the possiblities, I gave myself a headache and gave up. Sorry Fred, I'm of no help whatsoever!

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 7 Jun 2002 8:15 am

My D-12 Dekley has triple raise and double lower. Even with 10&12 and some compensator rods, I've never found a case where I needed or wanted more of either.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 7 Jun 2002 8:57 am

If I ever had a D-12 (but I´ll probably never get one because it´s more weight than I care to lift) I would probably draw some ideas from Buddy Cage´s copedent (for the guitar that unfortunately was stolen from him) on JB Arnold´s website. Extended E9 and C6. That one covers about every change I would ever want to use. As for the changer, when I was playing an S-12 extended E9 with double-raise/double-lower, in at least one case I had to set up an additional pull with a barrell at the bellcrank. (4th string - single E to F# - just can´t be without that one.) There was another one, but I can´t remember right now. So I´d say, if you want some more than standard changes, three raise holes would be a more elegant solution.

Good luck, Joe H.[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 07 June 2002 at 11:03 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Jun 2002 9:10 am

The Sierra Session is triple raise, double lower. Copedents that require triple lower capability are pretty rare.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 7 Jun 2002 9:23 am

On my S12 I have a standard arrangement as follows:

string 1 - No raises, no lowers
string 2 - 2 lowers
string 3 - 1 raise
string 4 - 3 raises, 1 lower
string 5 - 3 raises, 1 lower
string 6 - 2 raises
string 7 - 1 lower
string 8 - 1 raise, 3 lowers
string 9 - 2 raises
string 10- 1 raise
string 11- 2 raises, 1 lower
string 12- 1 raise, 1 lower

This uses theJeff Newman copedent with the exception of a lower to D on string 8.
I don't know what to suggest for the other neck.
Maybe use it for experimental tunings.

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Peter den Hartogh Fender Artist S10, Remington U12, Hilton VP, Gibson BR4 lapsteel, Guya Stringmaster copy, MusicMan112RP
www.ucaa.co.za
[This message was edited by Peter on 07 June 2002 at 10:46 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 7 Jun 2002 9:36 am

I can see where a Universal tuning would use three lowers, in fact that may have been one of the reasons to make the triple raise/lower in the first place.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 7 Jun 2002 12:00 pm

Jim- How true. Reece had a triple lower on his S12 tuning. There are times when you have to have it to get it all.

But agree, we do pretty well now with Both Triple Raises and Triple Lowers. ....al

Fred Layman · Post by **Fred Layman** » 7 Jun 2002 5:24 pm

Thanks, fellows. Keep 'em coming. In the past I placed a C6 chromatic tuning on a 12-string, i.e., the standard C6th with a G on the third string and D and F on strings 2 and 1, for a C,D,E,F,G chromatic sequence. I prefer that over the much larger strings at the 11 and 12 positions. Any one else doing that?

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 7 Jun 2002 10:59 pm

On my universals I have triple raises on string #'s 4,5 and 8- no triple lowers~ I have a few changers around if you're interested, Fred.

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 8 Jun 2002 2:46 pm

Yeah, Fred, I'm doing that on the C neck. Gotta run to a gig right now, but will call on the fone and discuss with you. CJC/CD

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 10 Jun 2002 10:30 am

My 12 string C6 is also like yours Fred, strings 1-5 are F, D, G, E, C. That's the standard tuning we shipped at Dekley for D-12's, but it's been too many years to remember where we came up with that.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 10 Jun 2002 12:01 pm

I also have one of those D12(10+6)Dekley monsters. I usually keep it at home for my practice axe, although on jazz gigs it's just great! I probably wouldve put that middle D on the C6 neck like Buddy and Mike Cass ect., except that the round crossrods (like on the MSA's) made it just too big of a hastle for my limited mechanical skills. I put a high A on the first string instead of the F, and dedicated a KL to raise both E's to F. I also have a floor pedal that
raises the middle C to D.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 10 Jun 2002 12:17 pm

Fred:

If you use C6th, have both a G and D on top and a D and C on the bottom.
Raise the D to Eb on the #9 (boo-wah, although I hat that term)pedal a.long with the three other changes.

Add a G to F lower.

Add Maurice's 4 note lower, top and octave C to B, lower octave E to D, lower octave A to G.

Lower octave E to D by itself.

Raise top E and octave E to F.

I assume you lower the A's to Ab and raise them to Bb.