In-line, or right angle ball----Joints

Raymond Beale · Post by **Raymond Beale** » 6 May 2002 11:27 am

Okay, what works the best, and is most reliable? The Sierra uses right angle on the side if the peddle, my MSA uses right angle on the center line of the peddle, etc. I am contimplatng purchasing a new steel that uses the straight or in-line ball connector.
Having no experience with the in-line, I dont know if it's a feature worth consideration.

Thanks in advance.

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"STRINGBUSTER" no more
MSA S-12 & SIERRA S-12 keyless
Ray Beale Rosenberg,Tx

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 6 May 2002 11:55 am

When Dekley first began, we designed an inline connector that attached to the top of the pedal. We had several incidents of the inside of the connector breaking so we scrapped that idea and went to the traditional side connectors.

I see some guitars today that use what appear to be exactly the same connectors that we abandoned. Whether they are or not, I don't know, but I haven't heard of any problems with them breaking. Of course I haven't been in the manufacturing loop for over 20 years either.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 6 May 2002 1:49 pm

I have my second Williams guitar with the in-line ball joint, and have not had a problem at all with them. I treat all my guitars gently, but someone that is used to really stomping the pedals, could have a problem. Due to the design of the in-line joint, it can't be as strong as the right angle type.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 May 2002 2:03 pm

I suppose there are both schools of thought at work here. The in-line design (where the resistance is applied to the center of the pedal, and not on the side) probably wears the pivot block and axle more evenly. Whereas, the right-angle (side mount) does put more stress on one side of the axle and pivot block.

I find the center-mounts used on my MSA to be quicker to fasten/unfasten than the sidemounts on my p/p Emmons...they take a few seconds more. Each design is probably mechanically sound, however, due to the minimal movement that takes place. As long as the parts are machined and tempered correctly, it's probably not a significant factor when choosing a steel.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 6 May 2002 6:21 pm

Bobbe S. said it best....'ever seen a boat trailer hooked up with an in-line ball?'.

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 6 May 2002 7:16 pm

I was just wondering if anyone ever built or customized the other end of the pedal rods on a guitar to use the same "ball-joint" type connectors where the rods attach to the
cross-rods at the "top"?
JE:-)>

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 6 May 2002 7:30 pm

I think I've seen rods with connectors on each end, but I can't remember when or where.

Raymond Beale · Post by **Raymond Beale** » 7 May 2002 6:04 am

Thanks guys for the response. One of the Jeff Newman videos, he made a statement to "really snap or pop that pedal" to get the required speed. As I play more, I'm using some of this. Now, I don't stomp the peddle, but the faster you move anything, more stress is involved.

Thanks Again!

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"STRINGBUSTER" no more
MSA S-12 & SIERRA S-12 keyless
Ray Beale Rosenberg,Tx

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 7 May 2002 11:49 pm

oh gosh... it is my teacher coming out....

I am really bothered when someone who plays the PEDAL steel is talking about "PEDALS and uses the word "peddle."

I can overlook a lot of mis-spellings on this list, but THAT one I can't.

"PEDDLE" means to sell things.

**please! spell that ONE word right!**

Winnie

(who is very upset by the lack of literacy that seems to be prevalent. The written/spoken language we have is as much of a tool for expression as the techniques on the steel are for expressing ideas and emotions through music.
Be proud of the language and strive to use it well!)

Cairo Zoots · Post by **Cairo Zoots** » 8 May 2002 8:14 am

Thanck Yew WW! Im sher glad somwunelse shairs meye appreesheyashun fore propir Inglish an speling an compostishun. I wuz beegining to thinck it wuz just mee

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ree-00-dee-doo

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 May 2002 7:47 am

The williams connects to the top of the pedal, which allows for very fine adjustment of the height of the pedal. With the side connection, you have to go a full revolution up or down the threads.

I've never had one break on either guitar.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 May 2002 7:55 am

Uhhh...that's half a thread, Bobby

(180 degrees). I think very few people would notice less than half a thread of height difference! [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 09 May 2002 at 08:57 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 May 2002 8:31 am

My Sierra uses a right angle ball on the side, which requires a full revolution (360 degrees). Yes, I can feel one revolution up or down, but I don't think that I really need the finer adjustment that the Williams allows.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 9 May 2002 8:48 am

With the Emmons pedal connectors you can attach every 180 degrees, but b0b is right that the normal connector requires a 360 degree rotation.

I'd guess that there's about a 4-1 ratio from the pivot to the end of the pedal vs. from the pivot to the connector. That works out to one turn (1/32") raising or lowering the pedal about 1/8" (1/32" x 4)

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 9 May 2002 4:47 pm

I own a 1990 Williams, with in line ball joints. After 12 years of playing this guitar, I finally wore out one of the joints. Guess which one (1st pedal on E-9th neck). Ordered a couple of new ones from Bill Rudolph, $5.00 apiece, Big Deal. BTW I have also worn out couplers on right angle. To me, this isn't a big issue. JMO

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 10 May 2002 6:11 am

I was just wondering if anyone ever built or customized the other end of the pedal rods on a guitar to use the same "ball-joint" type connectors where the rods attach to the cross-rods at the "top"?

Just noticed this Sierra on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=869900885 The pictures show right angle connectors on both ends of the pedal rods, maybe all Sierras are that way.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 May 2002 7:53 am

I play an Emmons. I find that I need to fine tune my different pedal heights to compensate for different heel heights on my shoes. That's why I always play wearing the same shoes.
Uff-Da!

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 10 May 2002 7:56 am

My S-12 Session has the standard "hook" ends on the top of the pedal rods.
I ask the question about using "ball-joint" connectors at the top end of the pedal rods the other day when I got to wondering if that would reduce some amount of the standard "pedal-noise" that all guitars seem to have.
JE:-)>

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 11 May 2002 5:38 pm

Jim: I don't think the noise issue would be resolved at all. Most of the noise is created by the cross-shafts, particularly the brands that don't use Delrin bearings. The Williams is quieter than most other brands because Bill Rudolph uses Delrin in the floor pedals and all cross shafts. I don't think the ball connectors add that much to the noise factor. JMO

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 11 May 2002 6:31 pm

Good point on the cross shafts as another source of "noise", but I still think that if the upper end of the pedal rod was a ball-joint connector, the reduction in "slop" (for lack of a better term)at this "joint" in the flow of pressure from your foot on the pedal, up the rod, to the arm on the cross shaft, into the cross shaft pulling the rods and making the changer work, should cut out some noise. I feel that most of the noise from the "hook-into-hole" connection method happens when a pedal is released and the not when it is pushed. Try this on your own guitar and see if you get the same results that I hear. With the guitar unplugged, work your A&B pedals a few times and listen for when the noise happens. When you push them down or when you let them up?
I hear it on the "let-up" side and since the arm on the cross shaft stops moving when the screw hits the stop, I feel that it could be the rattle of the hook end of the pedal rod bouncing in the hole in the cross shaft arm as the pedals rebound to the "up" position .
Then to go further with this, work any or all of your knee levers. Much less noise right? No pedal rod to cross shaft arm connection = less noise. IMHO
JE:-)>

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 12 May 2002 9:26 pm

I have to agree. Using balljoints on the upper end would, if nothing else, feel more solid and less sloppy. I know my old Sho-Bud used to clank like someone throwing horseshoes against the metal stake.