I've got an old Rick (metal body) 6 string. Tuned it according to Cindy Cashdollar's lesson 1 (Learning the Basics). Basically, GECAGE on JP #7380 C6 strings. #918 Dunlop tone bar (and a SP3) and finger picks (from banjo). I've gone through the Rob Haines "Anyone Can Play C6 Lap Steel" and the aforementioned Cashdollar DVDs. The latter is not really 6 string friendly and the Haines DVD was all over the place spending not enough time on the basics. I play guitar and can read tabs. My musical interest for this instrument is Western Swing.
My questions are:
- Should I put the Rick aside and get a contemporary (more user friendly) 6 or 8 string?
- Are there any other instructional sources DVDs I should try? (I'm in west Long Island NY, not much chance of a live teacher).
Thanks in advance,
John
newb trouble getting started
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
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John Halpern
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- Location: New York, USA
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James Hartman
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John, is that tuning described in your post a typo? If you actually have it tuned that way, I don't doubt you're finding the instructional materials challenging. It appears you've tuned to the top 6 strings of the 8 string tuning - try the middle 6 instead.
Your Rick should be fine. I think the Cindy Cashdollar DVDs are quite good instructional material if western swing is your goal. You can supplement with info available online, ask questions here.
You might find the "chord/scale locator" gizmo on Joe Ely's site helpful in learning the fingerboard:
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/index.php
I think he (and no doubt others) offer lessons via Skype if you can't find a local teacher and wish to go that route.
Your Rick should be fine. I think the Cindy Cashdollar DVDs are quite good instructional material if western swing is your goal. You can supplement with info available online, ask questions here.
You might find the "chord/scale locator" gizmo on Joe Ely's site helpful in learning the fingerboard:
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/index.php
I think he (and no doubt others) offer lessons via Skype if you can't find a local teacher and wish to go that route.
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Thomas Temple
- Posts: 250
- Joined: 28 Jul 2011 9:24 am
- Location: Florida, USA
Retune
John,
First off I would retune the guitar to C,E,G,A,C,E low to high... that is the standard C6th tuning for 6 string. Second invest in Doug Beaumier's 25 songs for C6th Lap. Not all western swing (actually a rather eclectic mix) but very well written and easily playable even for us newbies. Once you start to "hear" the melodies it becomes easier to figure out a few patterns. I also sent you an e-mail... best of luck and stick with it!!
Tom
First off I would retune the guitar to C,E,G,A,C,E low to high... that is the standard C6th tuning for 6 string. Second invest in Doug Beaumier's 25 songs for C6th Lap. Not all western swing (actually a rather eclectic mix) but very well written and easily playable even for us newbies. Once you start to "hear" the melodies it becomes easier to figure out a few patterns. I also sent you an e-mail... best of luck and stick with it!!
Tom
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John Halpern
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- Joined: 27 Feb 2012 5:47 pm
- Location: New York, USA
I started out with it tuned (high to low) ECAGEC (as per the string packaging). The DVD's being demo'd on 8 string guitars was the heart of the confusion. Both DVD's said to drop the lowest 2 strings to get the tuning for a 6. I'll retune like you said, but the instructor calling out the "second string" and that being my first string is not a good way for a beginner. It would be like teaching acoustic guitar to a beginner and only one of you is using a capo. So far it seems an 8 string is the path of least resistance unless I find a dedicated 6 string tutorial. I'll look into Doug Beaumier's course.
The scale on my guitar (bridge to nut) is 22.5". Would a longer scale (24+") be more beginner friendly?
Thanks again,
John
The scale on my guitar (bridge to nut) is 22.5". Would a longer scale (24+") be more beginner friendly?
Thanks again,
John
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Morgan Scoggins
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- Location: Georgia, USA
John,
I would take the advice of Thomas. The C6 book by Doug is the best song material available. It is easy to understand and you can almost sight read it.
The Cindy C. tuning is really for an eight string steel tuned G E C E G E C A hi to low. If you want to play Western Swing, you would be better off with this tuning. This tuning has a root, third and fifth on the three high strings. The other tuning has a root and a third on the two high strings, a nice standard tuning but it would be very hard to play those old Bob Wills songs without a fifth on top.
Good luck and have fun playing, but as Herb Remington said, "Play from your heart, not with just your hands".
I would take the advice of Thomas. The C6 book by Doug is the best song material available. It is easy to understand and you can almost sight read it.
The Cindy C. tuning is really for an eight string steel tuned G E C E G E C A hi to low. If you want to play Western Swing, you would be better off with this tuning. This tuning has a root, third and fifth on the three high strings. The other tuning has a root and a third on the two high strings, a nice standard tuning but it would be very hard to play those old Bob Wills songs without a fifth on top.
Good luck and have fun playing, but as Herb Remington said, "Play from your heart, not with just your hands".
"Shoot low boys, the're ridin' Shetlands"
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James Hartman
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- Joined: 2 Jan 2007 10:43 am
- Location: Pennsylvania, USA
- Contact:
John,
Not to sound unsympathetic, as I know being a beginner at anything can be frustrating, but it sounds like you're kind of focused on finding deficiencies in your instrument. I really don't that's a problem. Most of us probably started on a 6 string, like yours, of whatever scale length it happened to be (mine was an early bakelite Rick).
Once you start working on seriously learning the fingerboard (memorizing where the notes are) any 1st string/2nd string confusion will subside. My recollection of Cindy's videos and accompanying tab booklets is there wasn't a whole lot of playing on the 1st and 6th strings, anyway. Effort spent figuring out how to play those 1st string parts on the 2nd string will pay off in deeper understanding of the interval relationships between the strings (and a bit of slant practice on the double-stops). One plus for those materials is the tab is accompanied by standard notation so you can see what the notes actually are, and refer to the fingerboard chart for location on other strings.
Then again, if Doug Beaumier's book as recommended by Mr. Temple is oriented specifically to 6 string, perhaps that is a better starting point. I'm not familiar with it.
Once you've established some landmarks (so to speak) on the fingerboard, it gets a lot easier. All it really requires to learn is a bit of stubbornness and persistence.
Not to sound unsympathetic, as I know being a beginner at anything can be frustrating, but it sounds like you're kind of focused on finding deficiencies in your instrument. I really don't that's a problem. Most of us probably started on a 6 string, like yours, of whatever scale length it happened to be (mine was an early bakelite Rick).
Once you start working on seriously learning the fingerboard (memorizing where the notes are) any 1st string/2nd string confusion will subside. My recollection of Cindy's videos and accompanying tab booklets is there wasn't a whole lot of playing on the 1st and 6th strings, anyway. Effort spent figuring out how to play those 1st string parts on the 2nd string will pay off in deeper understanding of the interval relationships between the strings (and a bit of slant practice on the double-stops). One plus for those materials is the tab is accompanied by standard notation so you can see what the notes actually are, and refer to the fingerboard chart for location on other strings.
Then again, if Doug Beaumier's book as recommended by Mr. Temple is oriented specifically to 6 string, perhaps that is a better starting point. I'm not familiar with it.
Once you've established some landmarks (so to speak) on the fingerboard, it gets a lot easier. All it really requires to learn is a bit of stubbornness and persistence.
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John Halpern
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- Location: New York, USA
James, I get what you're saying. If this was my first instrument I would agree. I chose lap steel strictly for the western swing sound. Otherwise I'm more than happy to stick with my acoustic and electric guitars (some of which would not be suitable for a beginner at guitar). If the 8 string is the best way to get there I'd prefer to know now rather than taking a picturesque detour along the way. It's not a matter of excuses, it's a matter of using my time efficiently.
Thanks,
John
Thanks,
John
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James Hartman
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- Location: Pennsylvania, USA
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Ah. OK, from that perspective, an 8 string is certainly the more popular instrument for "contemporary" western swing. Plenty of great early swing stuff played on a 6 string, but that's looking back a ways.John Halpern wrote:James, I get what you're saying. If this was my first instrument I would agree. I chose lap steel strictly for the western swing sound. Otherwise I'm more than happy to stick with my acoustic and electric guitars (some of which would not be suitable for a beginner at guitar). If the 8 string is the best way to get there I'd prefer to know now rather than taking a picturesque detour along the way. It's not a matter of excuses, it's a matter of using my time efficiently.
Thanks,
John
Some guys seem to find 6 strings easier to deal with in the beginning. Whether that's expeditious from a learning standpoint, and for you in particular, who knows? You'll soon find the right path for you.
Cheers,
Jim
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Thomas Temple
- Posts: 250
- Joined: 28 Jul 2011 9:24 am
- Location: Florida, USA
6v8
John,
After reading your posts I think seeing as how you already have a good basic 6 string that getting an 8 string may be the best route to take. At least that way you have a choice and you can always resell one when you find "the" guitar. Check the for sale section and sometimes Bob Allen has a special going on new Melberts (like a hundred off on a blem). Anyway good luck and don't give up.
Tom
After reading your posts I think seeing as how you already have a good basic 6 string that getting an 8 string may be the best route to take. At least that way you have a choice and you can always resell one when you find "the" guitar. Check the for sale section and sometimes Bob Allen has a special going on new Melberts (like a hundred off on a blem). Anyway good luck and don't give up.
Tom
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Ray Montee
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- Joined: 7 Jul 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon (deceased)
- Contact:
My view is different from where I sit................
I have a four neck BIGSBY steel guitar with six pedals. All are 8-string necks.
With only rare exception did I ever play on the two bottom most strings.
On Speedy Wests' "STAINLESS STEEL"......I used a bottom string but only for one note then away we went on the remaining strings. Much the same for the old Bob Wills recording of "BOOT HEEL DRAG".
After some 50+ years playing in top rated local dance bands......I never encountered any difficulties in playing western swing.
You don't ad strings to your guitar much as RV guys and boaters ad "additional footage" or drag racers
apply extra 'horse-power'.....to tell your story.
Learn the tuning and the fret board, bar placement and picking technique.......then worry about extra strings.
With only rare exception did I ever play on the two bottom most strings.
On Speedy Wests' "STAINLESS STEEL"......I used a bottom string but only for one note then away we went on the remaining strings. Much the same for the old Bob Wills recording of "BOOT HEEL DRAG".
After some 50+ years playing in top rated local dance bands......I never encountered any difficulties in playing western swing.
You don't ad strings to your guitar much as RV guys and boaters ad "additional footage" or drag racers
apply extra 'horse-power'.....to tell your story.
Learn the tuning and the fret board, bar placement and picking technique.......then worry about extra strings.
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Morgan Scoggins
- Posts: 530
- Joined: 6 Mar 2009 5:25 pm
- Location: Georgia, USA
Ray,
You are right about that 8th String. I started out a few years ago playing mostly A6 tuning on my 8 string Steelmaster. The only time I ever remember using the eighth string was to Tune it down from an F# to an E so I could play the opening slide to "Boot Heel Drag". The A6 tuning is E C# A F# E C# A F# hi to low,but the top 6 strings are almost always the only ones used. It is important, however, to have the root third and fifth on strings 3, 2 and 1.
You are right about that 8th String. I started out a few years ago playing mostly A6 tuning on my 8 string Steelmaster. The only time I ever remember using the eighth string was to Tune it down from an F# to an E so I could play the opening slide to "Boot Heel Drag". The A6 tuning is E C# A F# E C# A F# hi to low,but the top 6 strings are almost always the only ones used. It is important, however, to have the root third and fifth on strings 3, 2 and 1.
"Shoot low boys, the're ridin' Shetlands"
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Bill Brunt
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 23 Feb 2011 2:34 pm
- Location: Texas, USA
A6
I'm with Morgan on this one.
With A6, C#,E,F#,A,C#,E low to high, you get the advantages of the C6 tuning you are using, but without the somewhat shrill high C on the C6.
Notice It can be tuned back and forth between the A6 High E, and the C6 High E (the the C to C#, and the G to F#) which is also recommended, and the tuning you find on most of the tabs.
So you have the best of both worlds.
The major triad on the 1st three strings right under the bar, minor chord right under the bar, 7th chord handy.
Harmonized scales are intuitive, whether playing along the neck, or in two-fret boxes.
It is the tuning of choice for Herb Remington, who played (and still does) swing and Hawaiian since the forties.(and wrote bootheel drag)
It is a bit generic for some of the music, but will get you up and running very quickly.
Check out Herb's site, and his Fun Tab series of lessons.
That said, I do want to learn C6 somewhere along the way, but on my 8-string, and keep the 6-string Ricky tuned to A6.
I am having too much fun just playing, now. (my wife, not as much)
Best wishes, and don't despair.
With A6, C#,E,F#,A,C#,E low to high, you get the advantages of the C6 tuning you are using, but without the somewhat shrill high C on the C6.
Notice It can be tuned back and forth between the A6 High E, and the C6 High E (the the C to C#, and the G to F#) which is also recommended, and the tuning you find on most of the tabs.
So you have the best of both worlds.
The major triad on the 1st three strings right under the bar, minor chord right under the bar, 7th chord handy.
Harmonized scales are intuitive, whether playing along the neck, or in two-fret boxes.
It is the tuning of choice for Herb Remington, who played (and still does) swing and Hawaiian since the forties.(and wrote bootheel drag)
It is a bit generic for some of the music, but will get you up and running very quickly.
Check out Herb's site, and his Fun Tab series of lessons.
That said, I do want to learn C6 somewhere along the way, but on my 8-string, and keep the 6-string Ricky tuned to A6.
I am having too much fun just playing, now. (my wife, not as much)
Best wishes, and don't despair.
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John Bushouse
- Posts: 704
- Joined: 6 Dec 2003 1:01 am
Re: My view is different from where I sit................
+1Ray Montee wrote:I have a four neck BIGSBY steel guitar with six pedals. All are 8-string necks.
With only rare exception did I ever play on the two bottom most strings.
On Speedy Wests' "STAINLESS STEEL"......I used a bottom string but only for one note then away we went on the remaining strings. Much the same for the old Bob Wills recording of "BOOT HEEL DRAG".
After some 50+ years playing in top rated local dance bands......I never encountered any difficulties in playing western swing.
You don't ad strings to your guitar much as RV guys and boaters ad "additional footage" or drag racers
apply extra 'horse-power'.....to tell your story.
Learn the tuning and the fret board, bar placement and picking technique.......then worry about extra strings.
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Gary Meixner
- Posts: 238
- Joined: 9 Sep 2009 3:48 pm
- Location: New York, USA
John,
From what I have read so far you already have almost everything you need to get started playing western swing style steel guitar. Your six string Ricky with a 22.5 scale length is perfect for the beginner and pro alike. I can't think of anything that you would learn on the six string guitar that wouldn't apply to an eight should you decide you wanted one somewhere down the road. The meat of the instrument is going to be on those six strings and you could truely spend a lifetime playing beautiful music with nothing more. A longer scale guitar is not going to be easier to play. In fact many believe the shorter scale guitar is much easier to learn slants on and I agree. Good luck.
Gary Meixner
From what I have read so far you already have almost everything you need to get started playing western swing style steel guitar. Your six string Ricky with a 22.5 scale length is perfect for the beginner and pro alike. I can't think of anything that you would learn on the six string guitar that wouldn't apply to an eight should you decide you wanted one somewhere down the road. The meat of the instrument is going to be on those six strings and you could truely spend a lifetime playing beautiful music with nothing more. A longer scale guitar is not going to be easier to play. In fact many believe the shorter scale guitar is much easier to learn slants on and I agree. Good luck.
Gary Meixner
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Dennis Coelho
- Posts: 154
- Joined: 31 Jan 2006 1:01 am
- Location: Wyoming, USA
newb trouble getting started
When I retired in 2005, I wanted to get back to playing lap steel, having taken my last lesson in Feb. of 1952.
I looked long and hard at the MSA Superslide, 22", and at first bought a 12-string following Reece's tuning. But it proved too much for me as a starter. I dropped it to 10 strings and then 8 (easy to do with the MSA), and went to Don Helm's tuning. Over the next year I tried several different ideas, even (heresy) a bit of U-12 PSG. But I finally decided on a double neck, 8 and 10, and then, at last, I got the hang of Reece's ideas and added those last two strings. So now I have an 8 and 12, E11TH (13TH?) on the bottom and extended C6th on the top and I love it.
I think different people gain different things from Cashdollar's DVD's. I didn't take away any particular riffs, but I did get a lot of good overall ideas about playing.
BTW, the tuning I was taught in '52 was (low to high) EAEAC#E.
I looked long and hard at the MSA Superslide, 22", and at first bought a 12-string following Reece's tuning. But it proved too much for me as a starter. I dropped it to 10 strings and then 8 (easy to do with the MSA), and went to Don Helm's tuning. Over the next year I tried several different ideas, even (heresy) a bit of U-12 PSG. But I finally decided on a double neck, 8 and 10, and then, at last, I got the hang of Reece's ideas and added those last two strings. So now I have an 8 and 12, E11TH (13TH?) on the bottom and extended C6th on the top and I love it.
I think different people gain different things from Cashdollar's DVD's. I didn't take away any particular riffs, but I did get a lot of good overall ideas about playing.
BTW, the tuning I was taught in '52 was (low to high) EAEAC#E.
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John Halpern
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 27 Feb 2012 5:47 pm
- Location: New York, USA
Thanks to all who have replied, especially those whose posts convey they understand and remember what is was like at the start. When I started acoustic guitar the tuning was the universal (low to high) EADGBE. All instructional material was geared to that 6 string tuning. Anywhere you looked you knew the baseline. This has been quite a different situation. All I was looking for was a similar start point with coordinated tutorials. Considering all the possibilities of both instrument and tuning it's amazing that anyone could actually learn to play yet you all have done it. You can't see it but I actually tipping my cap to you.
John, I feel your pain.
C6 tuning is sort of a baseline tuning. It's somewhat hard for guitar players to wrap their head around, but I finally did after several attempts.
The best thing you can do is find some playing you really like and that you know there is a reference for the tuning (the forum is great for that) and then just delve in and try to figure stuff out. I really believe that's the best way to learn. You can augment it by using other materials, as well, but jumping right into it will really take you far if you've got some good ears.
C6 tuning is sort of a baseline tuning. It's somewhat hard for guitar players to wrap their head around, but I finally did after several attempts.
The best thing you can do is find some playing you really like and that you know there is a reference for the tuning (the forum is great for that) and then just delve in and try to figure stuff out. I really believe that's the best way to learn. You can augment it by using other materials, as well, but jumping right into it will really take you far if you've got some good ears.
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Stephen Baker
- Posts: 119
- Joined: 27 Aug 2009 3:07 pm
- Location: Lancashire, UK
Hi Paul,
If you want to learn from Cindy’s western swing DVDs on a 6 string stick with the tuning you have with the 5th (G) on the high string and don’t worry to much about the notes on the missing low strings just yet, it worked for me. As a beginner you’ll progress quicker and build your confidence more by playing a recognisable melody or a hot break and every piece in those DVDs use the high string at least once. When I first started on an old 6 string I spoke to Paul Godden, steel player with the likes of Van Morrison, and that’s the tuning he wrote down for me for playing 40’s & 50’s type western swing etc. The down side to this tuning is that most teaching material does use the more common 6 string C6 tuning so you have to retune or think on your feet ( their 1 string equals my 2 string etc.) which is quite difficult especially when you are learning and you have enough to think about. All the pieces can be played with the common C6 by repositioning and using slants and such but as a beginner things like that are for the future. Hope this helps. Steve
If you want to learn from Cindy’s western swing DVDs on a 6 string stick with the tuning you have with the 5th (G) on the high string and don’t worry to much about the notes on the missing low strings just yet, it worked for me. As a beginner you’ll progress quicker and build your confidence more by playing a recognisable melody or a hot break and every piece in those DVDs use the high string at least once. When I first started on an old 6 string I spoke to Paul Godden, steel player with the likes of Van Morrison, and that’s the tuning he wrote down for me for playing 40’s & 50’s type western swing etc. The down side to this tuning is that most teaching material does use the more common 6 string C6 tuning so you have to retune or think on your feet ( their 1 string equals my 2 string etc.) which is quite difficult especially when you are learning and you have enough to think about. All the pieces can be played with the common C6 by repositioning and using slants and such but as a beginner things like that are for the future. Hope this helps. Steve
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Anthony Glass
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 10 Apr 2012 5:49 pm
- Location: Illinois, USA
I'm studying the Cashdollar DVDs myself right now. I think you can just as easily learn from them on standard C6, and in fact I think you'll miss out on a lot less. San Antonio Rose, for example, has a lot of cool riffs on the bottom strings of standard C6 that you'd miss out on if you tuned to the higher strings.. I'm not quite sure why she advises the higher tuning, except that she herself uses the GECAGE version on six string lap (according to her website.) Otherwise, these are great videos. For what it's worth, anyway, since I'm also just starting out on steel. It's been a real gas so far!
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Bill Thomson
- Posts: 108
- Joined: 27 Feb 2003 1:01 am
- Location: Ocean City, Maryland, USA
My 2cents:
-Cindy's DVD's are loaded with good information.
-Don't get too "wrapped around the axle" about playing a 6 string steel. There's a lot there to keep any musician busy for a long while.
-try the more popular C6th tuning (1st string E).
-Also Doug Beaumier has an excellent C6th course with 25 nice songs, TAB, rhythm tracks on CD's. Well worth buying.
-Hang in there, the steel is not that easy at first, but with a LOT of practice it will come to you.
-attend a steel guitar convention, work one on one with an experienced steel guitar player if at all possible.
-Practice, Practice, Practice
-Cindy's DVD's are loaded with good information.
-Don't get too "wrapped around the axle" about playing a 6 string steel. There's a lot there to keep any musician busy for a long while.
-try the more popular C6th tuning (1st string E).
-Also Doug Beaumier has an excellent C6th course with 25 nice songs, TAB, rhythm tracks on CD's. Well worth buying.
-Hang in there, the steel is not that easy at first, but with a LOT of practice it will come to you.
-attend a steel guitar convention, work one on one with an experienced steel guitar player if at all possible.
-Practice, Practice, Practice