Sierra Keyless 3rd String Winding Problem

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 24 Apr 2002 8:35 pm

I have a Sierra 12 string and am having one heck of a problem pulling (streching) the 3rd (G#) string. The highest pitch I can pull this string to is a D or D#, then I have to use the tuning screw (Key) to raise the string to G#. This usually results with bottoming out the tuning screw to the point I have no leway for additional fine tuning. Does anyone else have this problem and how did you solve it?
Thanks for any help!!

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 24 Apr 2002 9:07 pm

Hi Tom,
without knowing anything else about your set up, it sounds like too light ( or heavy??) of guage string. Did you just change them? Try a different guage...one size ought to do it.

I can see how that could be a problem...mine gives me just enough room for tuning with just a "squeak" left over. You don't want to bring it to pitch by adjusting the rod. That will really make you tear your hair out.My old BMI was guage sensitive on the 3rd string also. Hope this helps.

Tom Jordan

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Sierra Royalty S12 5/5 Universal Tuning, Session 400 LTD, ProFex II

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 25 Apr 2002 5:12 am

I have the same problem with my Lone Star Texas Special. I am currently using a .011. I intend to switch to a .012 on my next set of strings.

Karlis Abolins

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 25 Apr 2002 6:12 am

Hi Guy's,
you should beable to get your note pretty close up there, if you use short turns as your pulling the string it helps, I will say it's a little tricky, you might try a.012, I do but my note is a G.. good luck..

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C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Apr 2002 6:22 am

Tom,

I assume you have a keyless guitar. Based on this, I know of your problem. Don Christensen and I talked about this at length after I got my Sierra 12 string a few years ago.

I know of two ways to greatly help with this dilemma.

The first way is to aquire a set of "hemostats" (available at some hardware stores). After wrapping the string around the screw, clamp the hemostats onto the string about 4 inches from the screw. Then twist the hemostats so that you have about 7 or 8 wraps of string around it.

Now hold the hemostats in such a way that the wraps will NOT come loose. As you pull the hemostat/string tightly around the screw, tighten the screw and walk the screw and hemostats in a loosen-pull-tighte-loosen-pull-tighten-pull, etc. fashion until you have the string at or near a G note. I have actually pulled it past A!! (Don't do this

)

Once you have it to a G or a little higher, tighten the screw until it is at its final tightness.

The second way is to mount a pivot plate that will slide under the strings just to the right of the nut roller holder.

Now fabricate a wooden or steel "pulling" lever (about 12 inches long and 1/4" thick) with a screw threaded into its side about 2 inches up from the pivot point. Attach this lever (between strings 3 and 4), into the pivot plate so it can exert great pulling pressure against the nut holder as you pull the string ever tighter.

Wrap the string around this screw AFTER it is wrapped around the screw in the keyless finger. Tighten this screw tight. Then, use the same action as in the 1st method until you get the string up to a G note or higher.

In both cases, you should now have a lot of threads in the tuning screw to tune the string.

If you have any trouble understanding this, call me at 770-448-8455 and I will be glad to help. I finally got the latter method so it worked quite well; and fast.

God bless you in your attempts,

carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 25 April 2002 at 08:01 AM.]

Robert Todd · Post by **Robert Todd** » 25 Apr 2002 7:25 am

Pete Burak told me he solved this problem by substituting a longer screw for the original one supplied by Sierra

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 25 Apr 2002 7:41 am

Thanks Dave and Carl for your advice. I will try your methods.

To date, on this string change, I have broken two new strings, (one .011 and one .012) and succeeded in driving a string-end into my finger! I'm new to the world of keyless, so I guess there is a learnig curve to overcome.

Appreciate all your help!!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Apr 2002 7:45 am

Tom,

My Sierra had excessive 3rd string breakage. I was changing them all the time. I attributed it to the fact it had a 25 inch scale. But it could have been a burr although I DON"T think so.

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Apr 2002 9:07 am

Tom,

I use a pair of needle nose pliers to grab the string and pull it. On that high G#, I can pull harder with the pliers than I can with Sierra's string-pulling tool. You really do have to pull it pretty hard to get it tight enough that it won't "bottom out" before getting up to pitch.

You didn't say what model your Sierra is. I remember on my older Sierra Crown, I had to cut some metal away under the nut finger in the head pan to allow for more travel on the high G#. Then I switched to a .0115 for that string, and the hack was unnecessary.

Carl,

My Sierra Session has a 25" scale and it doesn't have excessive string breakage. Actually, it has less string breakage than any steel I've ever owned. I do think that pulling the strings real tight when putting them on is part of the solution here. If that nut finger gets too much of an angle on it, the string travels over a sharp edge.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Apr 2002 9:35 am

"If that nut finger gets too much of an angle on it, the string travels over a sharp edge."

b0b,

My strings always broke at the changer. Directly at the very top of the bend. I could not keep one on for more than a few days at a time. Again, it may have been a burr on the changer finger. I am not sure.

Also, I have been told by several early builders that the reason for the 24 to 24 and 1/4 inch scale was because of premature breakage when using longer scales. Seems I also recall BE saying something to that affect on this forum. Again, not sure.

carl

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 25 Apr 2002 9:45 am

I use a needle nose Vise-Grip pliers, clamp down on the string, wind it around the pliers a couple of times and PULLLL!
The trick, though, is to turn the allen screw as you are pulling the string tight.

Brad Burch · Post by **Brad Burch** » 25 Apr 2002 10:09 am

Are all keyless systems like this??? God, this sounds like a hassle and a half. Its pain enough just to change a set of strings and tune a keyed guitar. Maybe I'll be sure to stay away from a keyless guitar in the future. What about the GFI system, I've read very good things about them.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 25 Apr 2002 10:26 am

Any keyless system is still faster,better and easier than any keyed guitar to change strings once you get used to it.Believe me it's a lot more hassle to deal with unwinding the old strings,threading new strings thru the hole in a tuning peg,estimating slack/number of wraps,winding it up carefully w/a string winder,cutting it off w/dykes,etc.On a Sierra,it's only the 3rd string that you have to use pliers on - all the rest you just wrap around the screw,tighten down,break off the excess and tune it up.That's because we're tuning a string guage(.011)to G# that was meant to be tuned no higher than E.
I used to use Ernie Ball,GHS,SIT,etc on my MSA no problem - but now I too,play a Sierra 25" keyless and when I first got it I was breaking every .011 string I put on it after one pedal stroke.I called Don in a panic thinking I had just bought a steel that there were no strings for and he said I should try Kaman strings.He sent me a few and they lasted longer than any string had on my 24" MSA.Now I use Jagwires on my Sierra and have had no 3rd string breakage problems.As far as installing strings on that kind of guitar,I just wrap it around needlenose pliers like everybody else and pull the hell out of it as I tighten down the screw.What I do is pick the 1st string(F#)and when I pull the 3rd string up w/the pliers,I can hear the pitch of the two strings.When they match up,I tighten down the screw - which will bring the 3rd string up a bit more - say to G.After the string streches out and settles in and you tune it up to G#,the little knurled tuner will sit just about right compared to the others.Be carful tho - one time I was pulling the string a little too hard and it broke before I could tighten down the screw.I hit myself in the mouth with the pliers and finished up the set w/a fat lip. -MJ- [This message was edited by Michael Johnstone on 25 April 2002 at 11:43 AM.]

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 25 Apr 2002 5:50 pm

I have used a .012 as my third stg G#-A on both my D-10 PP and my S-12 Session Keyless ever since Jeff Newman told me to back in 74"
and have no problem getting it to "tune up" on the Sierra Keyless or having it last as long as an .011 on both guitars.
On the Sierra, I make sure to hear the changer "click" as I pull it around the screw, before I start to turn the screw in. I also find that if I back the screw "way" out/up, the extra few "pulls" as the string wraps around the screw as it threads back in, helps to bring it very close,then I use the tuning knob. The .012 sounds "fuller" to me that an .011 too!
Jeff said "it's gonna hurt if it breaks no matter what size it is, so go for the fuller sound". Works for me.
JE:-)>

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 25 Apr 2002 7:05 pm

Brad- I had a Keyless GFI, and it really works nice. I broke a 3rd string, and on this guitar, you back out the tuner all the way up, then use the pliers, as mentioned and pull the string up almost to pitch, and lock it around the screw.
Then with the tuner you have a lot of leverage left to tune the string the rest of the way.

I might add, that this was the first keyless that I had, and as Michael Johnstone says, was much easier than any old keys to change a string. No comparison!

I was amazed at how easy and fast it was compared to Keys.

The first time you do it is hard but after you know how, it is easy.

Now I don't know about a Sierra , never had one, but that GFI was easy....al

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 25 Apr 2002 7:20 pm

Well guys, I tried using a needle-nosed pliers and pulled so hard I lifted the guitar off the floor...and still could not pull it passed D#. I finally made a shim out of some brass tubing and placed it between the bottom of the tuning screw and the grove in the finger. This gave me a 1/16 inch more leway with the tuning screw. I've broken 3 strings now, one .011 and two .012. Think I will try Carl Dixon's lever suggestion next!

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 25 Apr 2002 7:45 pm

I had a Sierra for some time and no problems with any but the third string. Quality in string manufacturing, burrs on the changer and and tiny burrs on the actuall fine tuner lock screw were all contibuting factors. It was easier to change a string and get it up to pitch MOST of the time. But those few times when I'd break three strings in a row were just too much of a pain. I just never could warm up to that guitar, don't miss it a bit. My Sierra Lap-Top 8 string is a whole 'nother beast though! On my keyed steels it usually takes less than half a song on stage to have a new string on and up to pitch... so I can hang with that.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 25 Apr 2002 9:24 pm

"I tried using a needle-nosed pliers and pulled so hard I lifted the guitar off the floor...and still could not pull it past D#."

Tom - try taking your left knee out from between your knee levers and holding it directly against the left rear leg of your guitar to hold it still as you pull the string tight.Also,it sounds as if you are pulling up on the string instead of straight back. Also,and tho it may seem obvious - and I've failed to do this myself - don't forget to back the tuner all the way down before you put the string on so you've got all the possible tuner travel.One other thing I saw a guy try to do once was wrap the string around the screw counterclockwise - in the opposite direction from the way it tightened.Duh...
-MJ-

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 26 Apr 2002 4:39 am

I think that some of the problem is you guy's are trying to strong arm this to much, I did the same thing, you don't need to pull the guitar off the floor...it's in the touch.....

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Sierra Guitars
Sierra S-12 9&7
Peavey-2000-PX-300
S.L.T.

[This message was edited by David Wright on 26 April 2002 at 05:39 AM.]

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 26 Apr 2002 5:55 am

After you wrap the string around the hex head
6/32 screw on the sierra keyless, pull but don't over pull pull the string and pump the B pedal and tighten the hex nut.

Leave the string in the delrin dowel and tune
the the string. If the tuning screw bottoms out you can detune and repeat the process.

David is correct as you have to develop a feel for changing the strings on a Sierra Keyless. But once you get it down it is no biggie!

Lonny Servin · Post by **Lonny Servin** » 26 Apr 2002 7:34 am

I have two keyless Session Sierra guitars, a D-10, and U-12. I use a small Craftsman Robo-grip pliers. The harder you pull, the tighter is holds. I have never had a problem pulling a .011 to pitch. Changing strings is a breeze with a keyless.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 26 Apr 2002 10:14 am

I agree that it takes a few string changes to get good at changing strings on these babies...

But after a few full-set changes you'll be ready to compete in the fastest string changer contest!

(BTW, unless I'm doing a major cleaning, I just change one string at a time, bring it to pitch, give it a strech by pulling up on it a few times at the 12th fret, and bring it back up to pitch, before moving onto the next one).

First of all...
You need to make sure the piece of string that wraps around the locking screw (from the last string) has been removed (It won't lock properly if there is a remnant from the last string there).

I occassionally take the screw all the way out and inspect that locking surface. If that gets deformed it can act as a string cutting tool when you tighten down on it (lightly file it smooth in this case).

Also, make sure there isn't an old ball end lying in the changer.

I start by backing the tuning screw almost all the way out (you don't have to back it out that far on the wound strings).

I did get an extra long tuner screw from Sierra for the 3rd string, and I "Commanded" them to put an extra-long tuner screw on every Keyless that goes out the door (was it something I said?

).

If you call Tom at 503-761-9632 ext#2 he can send you one.

O.K., Please pardon the long winded explaination, but here it is in detail...
BTW, I use .012's.

I don't use any tools except the Sierra Pulling Tool that comes with the axe, and an allen wrench (I bought a nice allen wrench with a large "T" handle, and reccomend you do too).

I put the string on by hand and lock it down with just enough tension to hold it in place for a sec (so I have both hands free).

Then I grab the pulling tool and thread the end of the string through the pulling tool, and use my thumb to put a right angle bend in the string where it exits the hole, in such a manner that the end of the string does not extend past the end of the pulling tool (This prevents getting "stuck" by the string end, Ouch!!!

those babies'll go right to the bone!).

Then, while still holding my thumb on that right angle bend, I wind the string around the pulling tool "many times", overlapping the segment of string extending from the right angle bend, such that the string is "securely locked in place" on the pulling tool, and is now about 4" from the locking nut (the last few winds should be at the center of the pulling tool).

Now I am holding the pulling tool in my right fist (with the string exiting my fist between my index and middle fingers), and the allen wrench in my left hand.

With light tension on the pulling tool, I loosen the allen head.

I just leave the allen wrench in the allen head from this point on.

Still keeping tension on the pulling tool with your right hand, you can use your left hand to pull on the string (around the 12th fret), and you will hear the changer finger pop into place, and you will take up that slack at the pulling tool end (about 1/2").
(If you want, you can lightly lock the nut down again at this point so you have both hands free for a sec).

Now you are ready for the final tightening.

IMHO, here is the trick.
Use the tightening of the allen head in conjunction with pulling on the string!

You can do this 2 or 3 times to get it up to E or F#.

I pluck the B, or E, or F# strings as I'm tightening the G#, to hear where the note is.

I usually bring it up to E or F# using the "tighten+pull" method, then lock it in place and use the tuning screw to bring it up to G#.

Anyway, it's not just about pulling!

You back that locking nut out 1 or 2 turns, and tighten and pull simutaneously.
(I'm seated at the steel throughout this entire process).

You can lock it gently and pluck the string and see what note it is at in comparison to the lower strings.

Then, while keeping tension on the pulling tool, you can loosen that nut a turn or two, and repeat the "tighten+pulling" thing.
(With respect to bringing the string to pitch, repeating this method is kinda like a 3 steps forward, one step back thing).

So now you pull and tighten at the same time again, and since you just plucked the E or F# string (your target pitch), you repeat the pull/tighten thing untill you hear that you hit your target pitch, then lock it down for the long haul.

If you use the pulling tool on the wound strings be careful not to pull them past the desired pitch.

Once the string is on and tuned, to remove the remaining string, I just wiggle the string back and forth untill it breaks off right at the allen head (this takes much more wiggling on string 12).

Again, sorry for the long winded explaination

.
~pete

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 26 Apr 2002 11:53 am

Great job Pete, you did remember

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Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 26 Apr 2002 12:41 pm

Great information Pete!

Question:

At what angle are you pulling the string...straight back towards the end of the guitar or back toward the changer?...or 45 degree angle to the hex screw?...is the string level to the hex screw or is it lower or higher?

Many thanks for all the responses and helpful tips!!!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 26 Apr 2002 6:43 pm

Tom,
When I'm doing the tighten+pulling thing, my right hand is towards the front of the axe, but my body is still in a seated (but leaning forward and towards the tuners) comfort zone.

I usually pluck the other strings (to get a reference note) with my right thumb, while I pull with my right fist (kind of a reverse hitch hiking grip). So that's how I guage height at that time.

When I'm ready to lock it down for the last time, I pull the string towards my body, so that as much string as possible is locked under the allen head (but you don't want to overlap it).

Again, it takes alot of verbage to explain, and it takes a bit of trial and error practice to get to where you can do it quickly and correctly every time.
But you will get it!!!

I say trial and error because each string requires a slightly different touch, the high G# requiring the most "finesse".

You may find you don't even need the pulling tool for strings 10-12.
And if you apply too much tension to 7-9 (or any wound string) you might pull them past the desired pitch, and if you started with the tuning screw all the way out you won't be able to lower the note (you'll have to loosen the allen nut to release tension).

One other thing...
After one flight I noticed that my plastic Wheel-eeze case had slight indentations in it from some of the tuner screws.
I guess the case was compressed under other baggage.
I have since gotten in the habit of making sure that when the string is changed and up to pitch, the top of the tuner is slightly lower than the top of allen heads (this isn't a big deal if the case isn't getting smunched in the belly of a plane).

Also (yet another also

)...
Those Allen screws that lock the string down...
Those are a "consumables"... meaning that they can get stripped and cause you a whole 'nuther headache.
If I feel one is getting stripped, I replace it with a new one (either from Sierra or most hardware stores).
Having a good Allen wrench helps prevent this.

Don't be discouraged!!!
After playing a keyed axe for 18 or so years, it took me about a year to get used to all the little nuances of the Keyless.
I like Keyless!

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 26 April 2002 at 07:46 PM.]