Bluegrass Steel?

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 25 Apr 2002 7:05 am

Dan, that's a great observation. The fiddle accents are fluid and creatively syncopated. You'd get a much better steel solo out of adapting something from Chubby Wise, Benny Martin, or Vassar Clements; than by emulating a banjo player. Cool.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 25 Apr 2002 7:13 am

Jeff speaks the truth here. That "to me" is how you play Bluegrass on pedal steel. These techniques Jeff metions are "VERY" important to create the live within the style of bluegrass. It's not for everyone; but I believe if you want to live in that neighborhood...you should mow your lawn like everyone else on the block.
Ricky

Rusty Hurse · Post by **Rusty Hurse** » 25 Apr 2002 7:13 am

Well Jeff let me put it this way ! I PLAY as FAST as I NEED TO.LOL

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 25 Apr 2002 8:14 am

"The actual amount of movement is probably the same as the movement of a finger when pick-blocking, which should be very, very little to mute the note."

That's true, Jeff. Now, maybe I'm missing your point, but my hand is heavier than my finger. Are you saying you can (and do) palm block 16th notes at 170 BPM? Or that your hand doesn't move up and down--what I characterized as 'bounce'?

I'm hoping there's something I can use here, but I don't get it, yet.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 25 Apr 2002 8:16 am

Great thread.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2002 8:29 am

Jeff summarized my feelings about technique at uptempo speeds better than I can. Playing the melody is great, but what do you do for an encore? I think you need some ammunition for upping the ante a bit, especially if called on to play two or more solos.

And, Pete, I pick block by accident only. I could not rely on it as my sole blocking style without a LOT of WOODSHEDDING.

Dan, thanks for the tidbit on Mike. When I took a couple of lessons from him in the 70s I did not notice him pick blocking. I think he gets a distinct sound, compared to Franklin. I like both, but I'd always ascribed that little piece of his tone to not pick blocking. Of course, I haven't heard anything since 'Dreams of India' anyway.

Mike, If you're listening, we all respect your technical abilities -- always sounded so effortless to me. What's your take on this?

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 April 2002 at 09:43 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Apr 2002 8:45 am

That's true, Jeff. Now, maybe I'm missing your point, but my hand is heavier than my finger. Are you saying you can (and do) palm block 16th notes at 170 BPM?

Pete, I really hate to get into a "who can play fastest" contest, but I know you're asking me because you want to know if it can be done. I can palm block that fast (8th notes at 2/4 cut-time tempos). I certainly cannot play my best and hardest stuff at anywhere near that speed. But I can go back and forth between the basic fret positions (i.e. E9 key of G - frets 3,6,10), and mindlessly play riffs at that speed. Many players who are palm blockers can. My hand does move up and down (just as a pick-blocking finger moves back and forth), but I do not "bounce" it any more than you would "bounce" a pick-blocking finger. You must not try to bounce your hand. Since you really know pick-blocking well, then I would use an analogy. The timing of your palm block should be the same as when you pick block. The difference is that, instead using your picking finger, the side of your palm and pinky finger does it instead. But the timing sequence and corodination of pick, block, pick, block, etc. etc. is the same. If you can, try to study exactly how the timing works in your pick-blocking, and try to do the same for the palm-blocking. Do not bounce. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 25 April 2002 at 09:50 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2002 8:48 am

Jeff, I MUST hear you play sometime. Economy of motion is the key, no matter how you choose to make the notes start and stop.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 April 2002 at 09:51 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Apr 2002 8:53 am

That's true. If you are pick-blocking something that is so fast that the picks naturally are blocking everything, then you should do the same as a palm-blocker. The sequencing and timing involved in both techniques is the same.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Apr 2002 8:54 am

Larry, I was just responding to your note and you changed it. We gotta do something else besides playing on these computers!

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Apr 2002 8:58 am

Economy of motion is the key, no matter how you choose to make the notes start and stop.

Yes. The icons barely move the hands when they block.

Jeff, I MUST hear you play sometime

Is it my "mindless riffing" that has enticed you?

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 25 April 2002 at 10:03 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 25 Apr 2002 9:13 am

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 May 2002 at 04:19 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2002 9:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Is it my "mindless riffing" that has enticed you?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's MUCH more than that, my friend.

But, who knows, I'm always up for a little mindless riffing.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jerry Brightman · Post by **Jerry Brightman** » 25 Apr 2002 10:55 am

Gene,

It can't be done on the Forum as it would take up too much space....

I receivved all the requests for this that I can handle and can't send anymore out at this time. I received over 50 emails on my
offer. Thanks and if I get more time, I'll try and offer it again.

Thanks for your kind words Gene,

Jerry http://www.slidestation.com [This message was edited by Jerry Brightman on 26 April 2002 at 09:17 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2002 11:32 am

Ahhhh, my new friend, Jerry Brightman

For any who don't know, Jerry is a master practitioner of pickblocking. On top of that, he's a fun guy to play a jam session with.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jerry Brightman · Post by **Jerry Brightman** » 25 Apr 2002 11:46 am

Hiya Larry,

Ya, it was fun wasn't it in Grand Rapids...

Trying to help some of the guys here.

Yikes..I got 20 emails so far...
Guys, I had to cut this off as I got over 50 emails yesterday for it. When I have more time, I will try and do this again.

Thanks to everyone for your interest and nice comments...I hope it helps some of you.
Cya soon,

Jerry http://www.slidestation.com [This message was edited by Jerry Brightman on 26 April 2002 at 09:19 AM.]

Kevin Walker · Post by **Kevin Walker** » 25 Apr 2002 5:38 pm

If you want to play fiddle tunes note for note, then you have to sit down and find it.
If you have a copy of the Anthology of Pedal Steel, take a look at Doug Jernigans' version of Leather Britches. I think that you'll find a couple of pretty good and obvious ideas there. Listen to Bruce Boutons' ride on Uncle Pen and One Way Rider with Ricky Skaggs. You'll find some good ideas there also. Really listen to your top five strings, they will allow fairly quick chromatics.

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 26 Apr 2002 11:10 am

On a 10-string, the bottom four strings give you great chromatics, too, and it's a nice contrast from the higher stuff.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 26 Apr 2002 9:09 pm

Pete,

You totally understand what I was talking about. It's not about playing fiddle tunes note for note, it's about getting that cadence that folks like Benny Martin and Scotty Stoneman get. Danny Barne's criticism of my playing was not that I wasn't playing in time, but that I was playing like a jazz or rock and roll player: too even, without the lilt. Now I love the banjo stuff on the steel. I remember you playing me this amazing Ben Keith stuff on the steel when I had just started out. But for me, what worked was listening to the really simple fiddle stuff.

In a strange way, it's like my approach to jazz. For years I had approached jazz through listening to people like Pat Martino, Charlie Parker and John Coltrane. That's amazing music, and I love to listen to it. BUt for me, I didn't start to make traction in actually playing jazz until I started studying Johnny Hodges seriously. Now there is a jazz player who has a steel guitar approach....

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 27 Apr 2002 9:13 am

One problem that I had when I was learning pick blocking was bringing it to the stage. I'd work out all of these licks in the house, then when I tried them out on the gig it fell apart. I realized I was misusing the amount of volume. It's important to back off the pedal slightly in order to pick harder, as pick blocking needs a certain amount of attack to pull it off properly.