If you’re having to be shown everything, you don’t love it

[Stuart Legg]

I want to talk about learning. But not the lifeless, sterile, futile, quickly forgotten stuff that is crammed in to the mind of the poor helpless individual tied into his seat by ironclad bonds of conformity! I am talking about LEARNING - the insatiable curiosity and love that drives a person to absorb everything he can see or hear or read about music in order to improve his Steel Guitar playing. I am talking about the student who says, "I am discovering, drawing in from the outside, and making that which is drawn in a real part of me.
Carl Rogers 1983:
" learning in which the experience of the learner progresses along this line: "No, no, that's not what I want"; "Wait! This is closer to what I am interested in, what I need"; "Ah, here it is! Now I'm grasping and comprehending what I need and what I want to know!".
Paul Franklin:
“Ask yourself this, I don't care if I ever learn the alphabet, I don't want to be a writer or anything. I just want to write down a few words on paper and want someone to show me those....., How far will the guy get who agrees with this mindset?"

[Ransom Beers]

Learning is an experience that goes along with dedication of learning,if you're not dedicated to it ,you'll never learn it.To some(like me) it takes awhile to learn but being dedicated to what I'm trying to learn keeps me striving to learn.And I'm learning a lot by being a member of this forum,especially playing steel guitar.I learn something every time I sit down at mine.

[Donny Hinson]

I think that the main point in teaching, whether it's teaching music, writing, or whatever, is to get the student to the point where they understand the basics, and can learn most things on their own. A music teacher only has so much time, and if you have to teach every song the student wants to play, it could wind up being a never-ending task. Rather, you should teach only some songs, and the at the same time, show the student what the "building blocks" are in those songs. Then give the student an illustration how the building blocks in one song can be utilized to play other songs. Hopefully, the student will get the hang of things, and eventually begin to progress more on his/her own than while you're actually teaching, and thats the "eureka moment"...when the student proudly shows you (the teacher) what he learned on his own!

[Mike Neer]

The reason I like to teach is because I love to learn. When I teach, I learn how to look at things in new ways. I absorb as much information about music as I can and then I listen to the sounds of it and store it away for my own use. Some of it gets forgotten or discarded, but some of it resonates with me and becomes part of my DNA.

Did I say I love learning everything and anything about music? It's true.

[Mark van Allen]

I couldn't agree with you more, Stuart. When I first started playing, I had an aversion to theory and musical "knowledge" because it seemed too much like "math", which I had always loathed. When I accepted that in fact theory and musical knowledge were the shortcut to truly being a better player, it turned my whole mindset upside down. I realized the very "work" I'd been avoiding was joy, discovery, and the foundation for endless exploration and growth. Viva education!

[Bo Legg]

A big Amen to that Mark.
I getting a little tired of hearing "Ya'll are wastin' yer time with all that book larnin'. Just play the dang thang"

[Jerome Hawkes]

the holdout for many/most is they think learning is HARD (its not EASY, but its nothing more than concentrated EFFORT really) - you would be surprised (i was) at what as little as 20-30mins a day of INTENSE study on a subject will reveal over the course of a few months.
some people are just petrified of "book knowledge" - i know smart people that would rather take a beating than read/study.

i go through phases - i studied really hard in my 20's, then i just burnt out during my 30's and played pretty much on "autopilot" until i realized the reason i wasnt enjoying music anymore is that my EAR had advanced past my skill/knowledge level, so i just got back on hitting the books/ear/skills and its already made music fun again.

i read 2 GREAT recent books on the subject ( "The Talent Code" and "Talent is Over-Rated" ) that those who are into such science should check out - it really got me fired up as i assumed for the last 20 years that i just "didnt have it" there was some gene you had to posess, when really, after i made an honest assessment (the painful truth) - i didnt put in the hard necessary work that i should have - i kept looking for that "easy way - fast track" method that would do it in 3 weeks - and i have shelves of those books and videos to prove they dont work

[Dave Grafe]

Without developing an understanding of how music works a pedal steel player is just wasting time, but clinical research has shown that humans learn fastest and best when we are having fun, so be sure to act accordingly while you are cramming your head full of new information!

[Mark van Allen]

One of the greatest joys in my life is watching the innoculation of "love for learning" in my steel students. Not all of 'em get it... but when they do, it really makes me happy.

And a big +1 for "Talent Is Overrated"- Great book.

[Ray Montee]

In my case, I hated to read music......

I hated to study all those little 'secret code' symbols and all in order to play music; I hated having to count; I hated having to play "Hickory Dickory Dock" and "The Merry Go Round".....and I really hated having to write out my music in order to play the next lesson.

I hated having to get ready to go to my music lessons and orchestra pratice, and miss "Terry & the Pirates", or "Captain Midnight" or "the LONE RANGER". When the numbered tabs began disappearing toward the end of the first year of Gibson Instruction material and the NOTES became more and more prevalent, and then by the third year, all the numbers had disappeared on the sheet music, I mentally gave up at about age 13-14 or whenever.

I love all kinds of music and listen to it non-stop. My favorite used to be early day 'old' country but later developed into a strong love for traditional Hawaiian.

I have a BURNING DESIRE to play the steel guitar and go to it multiple times each day. Seldom do I ever come away from it without having discovered some other little nuance about playing. These things excite me and I can't wait to do it again real soon. That little 22.5 inch, plastic TOY GUITAR holds so many, yet to be discovered secrets that I can't rest until I find all of them.

Without a strong musical curiosity, an appreciation and enjoyment of all kinds of music and that 'burning desire to play the best steel guitar that I possibly can'.... I truly don't understand how ANYONE can expect to be any kind of an accomplished musician whether for commercial purposes or merely fun.

[Mark van Allen]

Actually Ray, you're touching on something that has been a very frequent side issue to the pursuit of learning here on the forum- in "traditional" learning formats like you're describing, music reading is an integral part of the study.
(When I wanted to study Ragtime and blues fingerpicking guitar and the local teacher insisted on starting me with "Little Brown Jug" on the first string in standard notation, I immediately left and found a teacher who went right to fingerpicking patterns and styles)
Many of the folks here who have an aversion to music theory study and application seem to equate it with music reading... which is not the case at all.

One can make a thorough study of music theory and access all of the wonders of applying it to our own playing without learning notation. They're completely separate pursuits.
I really wish my early piano teachers had shown me that distinction. I was under the impression that the only way to "learn" was by reading and reproducing what the masters had "made".

I'd like to remind the seekers that it doesn't require reading or using notation to avail ourselves of all the musical knowledge we need to grow. It can't hurt, but it's not necessary.

[James Mayer]

Many of the folks here who have an aversion to music theory study and application seem to equate it with music reading... which is not the case at all.

One can make a thorough study of music theory and access all of the wonders of applying it to our own playing without learning notation. They're completely separate pursuits.
I really wish my early piano teachers had shown me that distinction. I was under the impression that the only way to "learn" was by reading and reproducing what the masters had "made".

I'd like to remind the seekers that it doesn't require reading or using notation to avail ourselves of all the musical knowledge we need to grow. It can't hurt, but it's not necessary.

I made this point a couple of years ago in a thread that grew to many pages. My thread was something about how music notation is not as necessary or useful as it used to be and that I don't like to sit through performances where someone is playing note for note from notation. Most of the posters in that thread took it as an attack on music theory.

Music theory can easily be learned without reading notation.

[Mark van Allen]

Indeed, James. My worry is that players/students will bypass the joy and musical growth they could be enjoying through fear that "musical study" requires understanding and using notation to access that study information.
Hopefully these posts will help!

[Stuart Legg]

A good example: If you have a good grasp of chord formula, substitution, chord progression and can read music BIAB is a wonderful enjoyable creative tool.
If you don't it's just another toy.

[Bo Legg]

The idea is for the student to be the player and I'm just a coach and referee.
Young folks understand and want hi-tech so use it.
No books no pencils just a PSG, PC, the Internet, TablEdit, BIAB, a Memory Stick, lots of one on one Technique and an Ipod loaded with PSG.
You can find all you ever want to know about music on the internet. I just point them in the right direction.
TablEdit list tab, notation and plays the tab in midi with a line that moves from note to note so there is no forgetting or guessing how the tab or notation should be played.
The student will learn how to apply his musical knowledge by creating backing tracks for his playing.
BIAB is a great learning tool if you can read notation and understand chord structure, substitution and progression. You could spend a life time and never learn all the great licks I’ve heard in BIAB
These classes should take just enough weeks to make it worth a coaches time and hopefully just long enough for the bird (student) to want to flex his wings and leave the nest.

[Ray Montee]

Once upon a time many years ago in a far and distant land, a very famous person like Bo or Stuart (or was it Chet) that uttered the words "I can read music but only enough that it doesn't hurt my playing?"

Was that that you Stuart or Bo?

[James Mayer]

I wish I could read sheet music, but I've never developed the skill, though I've tried several times. I know the staff, can understand all of the rhythmic symbols,etc. However, there are some factors that have always caused me to lose momentum.

1) I've never worked in a project where someone busts out the notation. Chord charts, yes. Audio files, yes. But not actual notation.

2) When I want to learn someone else song for my own study, I tend to choose modern or obscure old music and there simply is no published notation to be found. Sometimes I'll find it and it will be so inaccurate that it's a waste of time. I can sometimes find Tabledit or Guitar Pro files, but then I'm listening to it play instead of relying on the rhythmic symbols to find the timing.

It's like a foreign language. Immersion is the only way to REALLY learn it and then it's "use it or lose it".

I figure it can't really hurt, but I just don't see it as a priority. I also think it's a terrible way to LEARN TO PLAY as a beginner. I think you should use to study or memorize a piece, but when it's time to play, put the paper away. Plenty will argue this, but I've met more people that can't break out of reading to improvise and come up with new fills, etc than people who've overcome that hurdle. Memorizing a speech is not the same as learning to have a conversation. My sister is a strong reader and doesn't really play any more. She has a much better ear than me but knows virtually zero theory and feels like she can't play unless there's a sheet in front of her. That's from years of music lessons on piano and violin, starting at age 9 or 10.

[Jerome Hawkes]

i know this thread is not strictly about learniing standard notation - but here is what kicked me into finally learning to read, and a simple example to encourage anyone.

i have a sister 18 years younger than me, and as most students, she decided to join band and play flute in the 6th grade - NO previous music skills, no real interest, just something that sounded fun to do. so they start these kids in Sept who dont even know one end of the instrument, how to put it together, how to read, on and on - well, i was in college at the time and came home for winter break and we had a little family concert where she pulled out her flute, pulled out her music and played some simple christmas carols - it was great....and i thought to myself how odd that SHE could do ALL this in 4 months, and yet i, who had been playing 12 years at the time, found it too difficult to learn?

i get a lot of community theater work for musicals that call for folk instruments like mando, banjo, guitar and fiddle - and even steel once in a while - not because i'm a pro, but mainly because i can read a score. just yesterday, they called about playing mandolin in a run of Spitfire Grill (and i was told, "we'll pay whatever" which they NEVER say unless they are in a corner - they cant find anybody that can follow the score - on these shows you cant just learn/memorize 20 musical numbers in a few weeks - these theater musical scores modulate all over the place...you HAVE to be able to follow the score, and most are 4-6 pages long

[William Lake]

Ray, that quote is from Barney Kessel

Actual quote:

Interviewer: Barney, can you read music?
Barney: Not enough to hurt my playing.

[Earnest Bovine]

One can make a thorough study of music theory and access all of the wonders of applying it to our own playing without learning notation. They're completely separate pursuits.

Music theory can easily be learned without reading notation.

Respectfully, I don't see how it's possible to learn much of anything at all about theory without reading notes, and it would be very difficult to learn even that little bit. How would you describe notes, voicings, spacing, durations, etc? Would you have someone sing each note to you and keep each one in your head until you have heard them all and can imagine in your mind's ear how they sound together?
You wouldn't even get past page 1 of Piston's Harmony book without understanding the notes on the page. Even the more narrowly focused books written by jazz and pop authors use notes on the staff to illustrate everything.

[James Mayer]

One can make a thorough study of music theory and access all of the wonders of applying it to our own playing without learning notation. They're completely separate pursuits.

Music theory can easily be learned without reading notation.

Respectfully, I don't see how it's possible to learn much of anything at all about theory without reading notes, and it would be very difficult to learn even that little bit. How would you describe notes, voicings, spacing, durations, etc? Would you have someone sing each note to you and keep each one in your head until you have heard them all and can imagine in your mind's ear how they sound together?
You wouldn't even get past page 1 of Piston's Harmony book without understanding the notes on the page. Even the more narrowly focused books written by jazz and pop authors use notes on the staff to illustrate everything.

Software. In my case, http://www.guitarscalesmethod.com/

Once you get past the ultra-cheesy sales pitch, it's an excellent piece of interactive teaching material. It was recommended by a local jazz guitarist and probably the best money I've ever spent. You not only learn it, but you apply and reinforce while learning, something that a book can't provide nearly as well. You learn scales, keys, chord construction, how each degree of a scale spawns a chord/mode, etc. You also learn the Nashville numbering system, which is something I didn't even realize I was learning at the time. Once you learn the meaning of each degree of a scale, the numbering system is already understood.

[Franklin]

In the other thread I was referencing basic theory "terms" for the sake of communicating ideas between musicians....Voicings, spacings, notes, etc. can easily be taught and understood through the language of intervals without ever learning to read a note of music.

Communication is the key to making great music....I believe its easier to communicate with other musicians from all schools of experience using interval values over notes.......To knowledgable players, I just say add a ninth, or leave out the thirds in all the major keys....Delegating the same request speaking note values over a chart is more complex and time consuming.

Paul

[Dickie Whitley]

Just my 2 cents, but If I were teaching, my students would study music before touching an instrument. I just firmly believe you need to understand the rudimentary things before you can wrap your head around an instrument.

[Herb Steiner]

One can make a thorough study of music theory and access all of the wonders of applying it to our own playing without learning notation. They're completely separate pursuits.

Music theory can easily be learned without reading notation.

Respectfully, I don't see how it's possible to learn much of anything at all about theory without reading notes, and it would be very difficult to learn even that little bit. How would you describe notes, voicings, spacing, durations, etc? Would you have someone sing each note to you and keep each one in your head until you have heard them all and can imagine in your mind's ear how they sound together?
You wouldn't even get past page 1 of Piston's Harmony book without understanding the notes on the page. Even the more narrowly focused books written by jazz and pop authors use notes on the staff to illustrate everything.

Doug
I disagree, though I would grant you that the ability to read notation and timing greatly facilitates knowledge of theory to one who is curious about the subject.

Plenty of players intellectually know the relationships of notes in chords and within keys because they can recognize the intervals by hearing them and can transpose them to their various instruments. I aware of a monstrous saxophonist from the East Coast who leads a well-known small combo, yet admits he could never play in a big band because his reading skills simply aren't up to it.

Conversely, I know of classically trained players who are monstrous readers, yet are clueless about why they're playing what they're playing, other than the fact that the notation tells them to do so.

An analogy might be a very well-spoken individual who has assimilated correct grammar and vocabulary through oral osmosis, yet is a functional illiterate when it comes to the written word.

In both cases, their knowledge is incomplete in a theoretical world, but can be completely functional within certain parameters and situations.

(I can read notation, though not at the speed of a trained classicist, BTW. )

[Earnest Bovine]

Herb, I don't think we disagree. Well, maybe we disagree about what "music theory" means. The sort of "music theory" that I refer to is the study of functional harmony. Maybe I should look up what that means, but off the top of my head that means how notes come together to make chords, and how chords relate the the tonal cener (=what key you are in at the moment), and how these things relate to modulations (= key changes). [plus non-chordal tones & other stuff]

We all know people with bad ears who can read (and are helpless without the printed page). Of course you need a good ear to understand theory. That's why the examples are there in the theory books for you to read, so you can train your ear to recognize the moving notes and changing intervals while keeping the key in mind.

(I can read notation, though not at the speed of a trained classicist, BTW. )

You don't have to be a sight-reader or an actual keyboard player to play the example slowly at the piano and listen to how it works.

And we all know self taught players with big ears. Most of these guys have developed their own non-standard ideas of theory, which works for them. You mention a saxophonist. How about Bix? He was a terrible reader too, but his piano compositions show a good grasp of harmony. How about Sneaky Pete? Mike Johnstone said that he imagined chords and keys in a series of interlocking circles in his head. Hey, it worked for him.

Most jazz players, and in fact most educated people with good ears, and I suppose all of us, start out discovering 1-4-5 on our own, then the circle of fifths etc., leading to our own wacky personal theories when we were children.

Only later we come to see how other have organized harmony into a coherent theory of "common practice". You're right; it "greatly facilitates knowledge of theory to one who is curious about the subject". As to whether study is good for any practical purpose beyond contemplating your navel, I really don't know. I refer you to the introduction to Piston's book http://www.scribd.com/doc/2187678/Walter-Piston-Harmony

I know I resisted the traditional analysis when I first read Piston's book. It seemed that he didn't understand chords, and in particular the chord progressions of popular music, in a useful way. As the years passed I have changed my mind.