Rickenbacher Sacrilege

David Hayes · Post by **David Hayes** » 22 Feb 2012 5:51 pm

I have been reading on this site about the Ric lap steels and seems everyone loves the Bakelite's but the "metal" ones (model 59, S, NS and SD) get mixed reviews.

Most of the critics find them "harsh" sounding and attribute that to the hollow metal body. I understand that these guitars were filled with newspaper when new (to presumably tone down the harshness). Perhaps after 30-40 years it is not as effective.

Now I am not very smart, so I am sure this has occurred to someone before but has anyone ever filled one of these metal guitars with something other than old 40's newspaper to seem if it helped the tone? This is probably a stupid (and sacrilegious) idea but would appreciate thoughts.

Eddie Cunningham · Post by **Eddie Cunningham** » 22 Feb 2012 6:15 pm

At one time I owned a hollow metal Ric stuffed with 1935 newspapers . I filled her up with soft rubber padding to kill all those harsh vibrations and tightened up the bridge and she really sounded much better with more sustain. I sold it for $100.oo several years back !! I also read somewhere that some old Hawaiian filled his with sand !! FWIW !! As I recall you have to remove the pckup to get inside the steel . the old geezer AKA Eddie "C"

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 22 Feb 2012 6:40 pm

Eddie Cunningham wrote:I also read somewhere that some old Hawaiian filled his with sand!

When I lived beachfront in Waikiki years back I read that same thing and went right out and filled my Bakelite 8 str. (sensibly, containing the sand in hosiery), and all it did was make it heavier. Yet I kept it in there just to be on the safe side with the ancient Hawaiians

But it might have made a difference with the metal bodies. I'd try doing it with plasticine (modeling) clay and expect better results. The clay helped tame the overtones inherant in my hollow neck fry pan. But what made my Bakelite T logo sound even better was dropping a complete wiring harness from an older Bakelite into it. What was already a great sounding steel, especially in JB's hands, is now way better.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 22 Feb 2012 6:46 pm

I stuffed all of mine with terry cloth hand towels ... Worked it into the neck with a coat hanger.

I for one ... Love the hollow bodied steels ...

David Hayes · Post by **David Hayes** » 22 Feb 2012 6:50 pm

Rick loving them means a LOT.

David Matzenik · Post by **David Matzenik** » 23 Feb 2012 5:57 am

There is a legend in the Appalachian Mountains that if you want really good tone you have to kill a rattlesnake and put the rattle inside your fiddle. Who knows, it might work in a steel guitar?

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 23 Feb 2012 9:01 am

For sure, there's more snake rattles still found in guitars than sand, thank god!

John Hanusch · Post by **John Hanusch** » 23 Feb 2012 9:35 am

On the few metalbodies that I've worked on - all had the newspaper in them and a couple did have Ron W.'s clay or some thing similar that was mostly hardened - sort of a greyish/dirt color.
Also, Ron or Rick or anybody else - could you specify/schematic the wiring difference from the T-Logos to the earlier Bakelites? Thank you guys, you're the best...
Regards, John H.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 23 Feb 2012 11:31 am

The early frypans and Bakelites used a "rheostat " configuration as a volume control.

Two hots and two grounds came from the pickup .

One set went to two lugs of the potentiometer (100 k) ... Making it a rheostat.

The other set went to the jack.

As you lower the volume ... The load on the pickup drops too ... Making it a treble control.

An interesting scheme ... Tone varied with volume ... Kinda a "one trick pony " though.

Later another 2 lug pot (rheostat) & capacitor was added to the "volume rheostat" for added tone variance.

Later Ricky's went with the typical 3 lug configuration (a true potentiometer) for the volume ... With the typical 2 lug pot (rheostat) & capacitor for the tone.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 23 Feb 2012 11:57 am

John, I wouldn't be surprised if someone stuck geologic clay in some steels, as I don't know how long plasticine/modeling clay has been available or known to be better for these types of applications. G clay will cause moister problems and harden/deform/crumble, not good.
Rick has mentioned dealing with some nasty and hard substances in his steel workings. I've fortunately never encountered this, and have no idea what the wiring schems are, but wouldn't mind having a file filled with them all.

David Hayes · Post by **David Hayes** » 23 Feb 2012 12:48 pm

What about some of the expanding foam sprays like Great Stuff?

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 23 Feb 2012 12:58 pm

Maybe. I know it's been done on Spanish electric hollowbodies per feedback, an easier animal to tame but in the same train of thot.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 23 Feb 2012 1:13 pm

I wouldn't put anything in there I couldn't get out.

Terry cloth (100% cotton) and a few desiccant packages ... is the way to go. Gives you a "cellulose fix"

Some Ricky Frypans, Silvers and other hollow bodied steels ... used a "creosote" like material ...

Once cured, it doesn't smell ... but if chipped or broken off ...

... you'd think they built your home out of railroad ties

Probably not the healthiest stuff to have around ...

Interesting side note ... the "Model G Deluxe" of the 50's (Ornate gold laden Silver Hawaiian) ... used a lucite fretboard mounted to a piece of lumber shoved up the neck.

Mine sounds better than any of the other hollows ... maybe there is some use for wood in steel guitars

B. Greg Jones · Post by **B. Greg Jones** » 23 Feb 2012 4:22 pm

I dont know what for sure I have here. I own a 50's Model G Deluxe with the gold hardware and fretboard. It has a hard resin of some sort stuffed in the body, not newspaper. I thought that this was done by someone later, not sure as I dont know alot about Ricky guitars. What I do know is, I love the sound of the guitar for my purposes. I used it quite a bit when I worked at Renfro Valley. I always figured if it aint broke, dont fix it!!!! Is this resin original then???

Greg

Robert Salomone · Post by **Robert Salomone** » 23 Feb 2012 5:16 pm

I've removed the creosote out of two Silver Hawaiians..
messy stuff, I re-stuffed them with rags. One thing I noticed is that the bridge and nut material was different; the older one had both made out of metal, the newer one used bakelite. I liked the tone out of the metal one much better.

John Dahms · Post by **John Dahms** » 23 Feb 2012 5:56 pm

What I have noticed is that only part of the first year of production (1937) had plated nuts and saddles and soon were changed to black bakelite-like plastic.
The kreosote-like stuff that I have come across was limited to the tail area below the pickup.
I like Rick Aiello's towel idea and used it on a Magnatone Melodier to tame down the resonance (the Melodier is a rectangular block shaped body/neck combination shaped from sheet steel and covered in MOTS. It's an empty metal box).

Doug Freeman · Post by **Doug Freeman** » 31 May 2012 1:32 pm

Man, that creosote/resin stuff is brutal. I just got this beautiful '50s SD on eBay, paying no heed to the seller's description that the input jack was plugged up with something, "probably sugary." When I tried to plug it in, WTF? I knew that nasty resin was the issue and was a little daunted by it. Tried poking from the outside, into the jack, hoping to knock the stuff loose. No luck. Lifted the pickup/bridge assembly out (while still connected, didn't want to snip the wires) to find great gobs of that crap encasing the pots and the jack! It must have gotten hot at some point and collected down there, otherwise I don't see how the guitar could ever have been plugged in and used.

Started chipping away at it through the pickup hole, with picks and screwdrivers, hoping to clear away enough of the resin to free up the input jack. Was able to do so, enough to clean out the sleeve and tip of the jack with denatured alcohol and spray some cleaner into the pots. Miraculously the thing fired right up and works great. There is some whitish tissue-like paper stuffed into the pickup cavity area, and I could see the plank of wood in there that the fretboard and top rivets are attached to. Didn't see any newspaper, though, as I have in some other ones from that era and earlier. Any rate, it sounds glorious, not really metallic, at least when amplified, and I can't wait to play it on my gig tonight. Another thing I like about the steel body Ricks is how much sound they put out acoustically. Nice couch potato guitars. But what were they thinking putting that crap around all the electronics?

Frank Welsh · Post by **Frank Welsh** » 31 May 2012 3:52 pm

My Ric has newspaper dated 1932 in it which my dealer said was put there to dampen the stray vibrations that a hollow metal body would produce.

There is a hard black substance in the interior at the back of the guitar under the bridge area but has deteriorated and crumbled even with my very gentle playing and handling of this instrument. Now the guitar has very poor sustain and I am sure that the substance (creosote?) was poured into the guitar at the factory in a liquid or semi-liquid form to harden for the purpose of adding some mass to the end of the guitar to enhance sustain. The guitar's original pots are nearly completely worn out. As mentioned, access to the interior is limited, so work on this guitar to improve the sustain would be very difficult (for me anyway).

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 31 May 2012 4:21 pm

here is my Model 59. I read on this forum about newspaper stuffing and have always been curious to get inside. I don't tinker with guitar insides too often, but have built a couple lap steels and changed out p.u.s on a telecaster.
I have been reluctant to operate on my Ricky for fear of breaking the p.u. wire. wasn't this mentioned on this forum? I believe it was in the context of fine tuning the pickup/string setting, adding a foam pad under the pickup...?
so is there any thing I should be careful with after I pull out my screw driver set?

Gary S. Lynch · Post by **Gary S. Lynch** » 31 May 2012 4:23 pm

Hi Doug,
I own the same Ric SD you have. I actualy like it so much I was also bidding on the one you won. Thanks for sharing the info; I am going to keep mine in a cool place!
Had no idea that stuff was inside.

Doug Freeman · Post by **Doug Freeman** » 18 Jul 2013 5:09 pm

Creosote update:

Have kept the SD in its case for most of the last year, standing up against the wall in my bedroom with the input jack facing down. It had been some time (4 or 5 months?) since I plugged the guitar in, and when I went to do so the other day the jack was again plugged up with the creosote! So that stuff continues to move, blob-like, even in very cool and temperate conditions. Guess I need to leave it sitting with the input jack edge facing up so it moves away from the jack. Weird.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 18 Jul 2013 6:56 pm

My Rickenbacker Electro is stuffed with cotton batten which seemed to be the norm better than newspapers back in the 50's. It works well. It's easy to get in, and out, if needbe!!!

Geo

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 19 Jul 2013 4:05 am

Doug, funny you should bring that up ... I saw this yesterday ...Pitch Drop Experiment caught on video ... And immediately thought of that mess in my A25, etc ....

Nate Hofer · Post by **Nate Hofer** » 19 Jul 2013 4:18 am

David Matzenik wrote:There is a legend in the Appalachian Mountains that if you want really good tone you have to kill a rattlesnake and put the rattle inside your fiddle. Who knows, it might work in a steel guitar?

Ha! Well guess what? I was a huge fan of Bill Monroe and when I heard he kept a rattlesnake rattle in his mando I promptly put one in my Dobro.

I don't think it really helped the tone but then I didn't kill the snake - rather my dad did. So perhaps I didn't do it right. (I also bought a mojo hand once - never brought me women either.)

Doug Freeman · Post by **Doug Freeman** » 19 Jul 2013 9:22 am

Rick Aiello wrote:Doug, funny you should bring that up ... I saw this yesterday ...Pitch Drop Experiment caught on video ... And immediately thought of that mess in my A25, etc ....

Whatta trip, Rick! Thanks for sharing.

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