Replacement Roller nuts.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 30 Mar 2002 12:24 am

1-Where can one buy a set of replacement roller nuts for a 12 string Universal guitar?
2-And which set would be better: a gauged set or a set with equal V-grooves?

Any help is appreciated.

Al Miller · Post by **Al Miller** » 30 Mar 2002 3:47 am

what type of guitar is it?
i think the gauged rollers are your better bet. they level the strings out across the neck .but i think,(someone chime in here if im wrong)they are not interchangeable like from emmons to msa or sho-bud to mullen, call the company were your guitar was made they should help. or go to bud carter web site and ask bud he would know,

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AL (BOO) Miller
mullen D10
65 EMMONS P/P D-10

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 30 Mar 2002 5:59 am

Unfortunately it is not one of the big-name brands. I am not even sure what brand it is. I just need a complete set because the strings are rattling against the bar on the first fret. Maybe someone who stocks parts of most brands can help?

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 30 Mar 2002 8:49 am

Peter,
I don't believe anyone could help you with out some further exact information, at least in relation to makeing you a set of new roller nuts. Measurements is what I'm talking about. It would seem to me if you would take the guitar to a machinist, he could do it all for you right there. Ofcoarse, you will need to know and relay to him the guages of strings you propose to use. Have the groves made in a V rather than a U. I prefer brass, but stainless or aluminum (6061 or 7075) and very good too.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Bob Mainwaring · Post by **Bob Mainwaring** » 30 Mar 2002 9:30 am

Hi there Peter,
You may find that sometime in the past the previous owner could have had the rollers out and placed them back in a different config'.
The easiest way to check would be to get a vernier caliper to check out to diameters of the "V" bottoms. The larger diameter would be the 3rd string then 1st, 2nd, 4th and so on till they're all back in place.

Bob Mainwaring. Z.Bs. and other weird things.

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Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 30 Mar 2002 9:47 am

It has always puzzled me why guitar manufacturers do not provide a selection of different guage roller nuts. Especially with a new guitar. Without exception all the guitars I have tried have the imbalance
rattle problem at the first fret.
In addition there are some players who like to experiment with different tunings. This really calls for guaged roller nuts.
Going to a machine shop may be OK if you can find someone with the right equipment and who is prepared to allot the necessary time for the task. Then you have the cost factor to deal with? Consequently, what I have seen and tried coming from a machine shop is most times somewhat "crude" and below the acceptable standard.
It is an aggravation to say the least.
I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I am just too "picky"..too "fussy" or whatever.
There seems to be very few others who share my concerns.
Beautifull guitars, great tone etc that rattle at the first fret unless you nail that bar down with a "then tense" left hand.
What a shame!
Just my opinion.
I hope someday, someone gets the job done on the roller nuts and then we will be much closer to "the complete" guitar.
Just my feelings/opinion.

Roy Thomson
[This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 30 March 2002 at 09:49 AM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 30 Mar 2002 9:49 am

Thank you guys. The problem is this: one roller had a different diameter when I got the guitar. It was MUCH smaller, so I went to a machine shop, gave them the complete nut including axel and all rollers in the correct sequence, plus a set of strings to look at the sizes. They made a couple of replacements of that specific roller, but when I tried them, they were slightly off. It could also be that some of the other original rollers were off. So I tried several swaps, but to no avail. In short, I don't trust this set and I think it may be better to get a complete matched set, rather than to use trial and error again.

Can you actually buy matched sets including the axel?

I will get the sizes of the axel and nut-spaces as soon as I get my hands on calipers to take measurements.
Peter

Bob Mainwaring · Post by **Bob Mainwaring** » 30 Mar 2002 9:32 pm

Peter - there was a similar thread about the same things back last year sometime.

A simple way to eliminate for all time the problems of "bar rocking" across the first fret would be to have adjustable roller nuts mounted on a lateral "L" shaped holder still using a 1/8" diameter axle rod although they'd be singular rather than going through all 10 - 12 strings at once.

They could then have a verticaly mounted allen grub-screw that could be adjusted in a couple of seconds.

Whilst on the subject, it's also been brought up before that Z.Bs. had an ajustable roller nut that could be swivelled from side to side as well as back and forward to allow for "intonation" to be employed, thereby lessening the chances of being out of tune playing well up the neck.

A lot of work still has to be done regarding the upgrading and open mindedness of our beloved instruments as well as opening up new ideas like our forum friend and manufacturer/builder Maurice Anderson.

This forum has done a power of good towards bringing to the attention heaps of ideas that otherwise would never have been heard of by any other means.

Bob Mainwaring. Z.Bs. and other weird things.

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Al Miller · Post by **Al Miller** » 31 Mar 2002 3:27 am

roy !!
check out the mullen guitar.
they have big brass rollers that are gauged . my mullen has never had a string buzz on the first fret or any other fret and its a 95 model and played alot and also hundreds of string changes its the best design on the market today i think how bout you?

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AL (BOO) Miller
mullen D10
65 EMMONS P/P D-10

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 31 Mar 2002 4:32 am

Hey guys, I've just discovered the problem by reading old posts.
If I avoid string 11 and 12, all the others are perfect; no buzz, no pressure needed. So all I have to do is measure the discrepancies on 11 and 12 and very carefully make the grooves in those rollers slightly deeper.

Thanks
Peter

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Mar 2002 11:00 am

With the exception of Reece and Bud Carter (and Zane Beck, God rest his soul), most of the effort for engineering and design of steel guitars has centered on the 10-string, because that's what most of the builders play themselves. There are two important areas where a 12-string (or 13- or 14, for that matter) is different enough to warrant some work:

1. As you've found, the 10th through 12th strings on the universal are much larger than the 10th on E9. There is a serious need for gauged rollers on a universal guitar. I'm fortunate to have a machinist handy, but hate having to go through the trial & error every new guitar I buy -- one reason I've played three guitars over the past 20 years.

2. As Carl Dixon and others have mentioned recently, the physics of the changer is different for a 12-string. The axle through which the changer fingers pivot is designed to have 10 fingers. To my knowledge, no manufacturers use a larger diameter axle on 12+ string guitars. As a result, most 12-strings have serious detuning problems, particularly on the larger diameter strings and those near the center of the axle. The 6th is the offender on most 12-string guitars. Some folks use a wound 6th and this works fine, but the 'standard' universal copedent requires a full tone raise and many players need the full tone lower. Some guitars can't do both and most I've found require such a long throw, especially on a lever, to be awkward to play. Some players have resorted to compensating with a pull (e.g., on the A pedal) to raise the 6th slightly. My A pedal is already stiff enough, pulling 5, 9, and 12, so I prefer not to put a Band-Aid on what is really a design flaw.

Back to the rollers, I'd love to see manufacturers offer them by string gauge. Most folks would gladly pay. My machinist friend and I spent nearly a month off and on until we got them right for my U-12 push-pull. Once it was fixed, it was WONDERFUL. When you don't have to worry about bar pressure and string buzz, you can devote more time to your playing and tone.

(sorry for the dissertation -- this is one of my 'hot buttons'

)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 31 March 2002 at 11:05 AM.]