Question for Winnie Winston

Ricky Littleton · Post by **Ricky Littleton** » 22 Mar 2002 6:57 am

Winnie:

With all the questions about universal tunings, I am wondering about the 14 string universal you have in "the book".

My next guitar is most likely going to be a 14 and rather than the "standard" universal, I was thinking seriously about your approach in your book.

What are your thoughts on your 14-string universal?

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Alesis Microverb
Dan-Echo, E-Bow

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 22 Mar 2002 7:52 pm

Hoo!!
I have very few thoughts about a 14 string universal these days!
My tuning had changed subtantially since then, and I've learned a lot too.
AND, the steels have gotten better, and I got turned on to having levers both inside and out.
I think a 14 string has to evolve through your own stuff. I've looked and looked at Tharpe's 14 and I can't really understand it-- but he sure did!
Tell me more about what you are thinking... feel free to do it here (I check on every three days or so) or write direct to me.
Best!

Winnie

Ricky Littleton · Post by **Ricky Littleton** » 25 Mar 2002 11:10 am

Winnie:

I like the "look" of your old 14 universal tuning because it preserves the entire E9th without any compromises. I realize alot of universal purists will say "once you get over the learning curve, you'll never miss the low D..." but I'm very comfortable with the low D and would not be too thrilled with losing it. I know I could still get it using a knee but guess I'm just stuck in my little rut. I think your comment that the 14 must or should evolve from one's own technique or "stuff" is very true and I think the 14 is an excellent platform to do that on. As you said, Julian Tharpe definitely did that for sure!

I really appreciate your comments and your input on this.

Thanks!

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Alesis Microverb
Dan-Echo, E-Bow

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 25 Mar 2002 11:59 am

Hey Ricky,
I've admired that 14 string Universal from the book for a long time for the same reasons you stated. I think if I used it I would lower the E's on the RKR and lower the 9th string to C# along with them. Some C6th players are dropping the low C and adding a D note between the E and C strings. On an E9/B6 universal dropping the D to C# would give you this same thing.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

Anders Brundell · Post by **Anders Brundell** » 25 Mar 2002 12:03 pm

Winnie!
Is your copedant published somwhere on the web? I´m curious to have a look. My is at http://communities.msn.se/countryfolketiDalarna/dcmcsfotoalbum.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=91
I do´nt expect to master it before the next 15 lifetimes or so, but I like to experiment.

Robert Todd · Post by **Robert Todd** » 26 Mar 2002 10:53 am

Ricky, on a U12 your D on the 9th string is still there, but requires a knee lever to pull the B up to a D. I do it on my RKL, which also lowers my 2nd sting a half step to D.

You'd be amazed the sounds that minor 3rd pull gives you ion that 9th string, plus you can do great Chuck Berry rock vamps by usuing the lever in combination with the A pedal. I'd never go back now that I've tried this copedant.

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 26 Mar 2002 7:25 pm

Hi!

Sorry, my tuning is not on the web. I'll try to figure out how to put it up here.
I think that the 9th string "D" is as great string to have, and I've played a few "universals" and I miss it. I've put a knee on mine that RAISES the 9th to an Eb so you can strum across in a the B6th and not get a harsh dissonance.
I'll try posting mine right here.

Winnie[This message was edited by Winnie Winston on 27 March 2002 at 03:15 AM.]

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 27 Mar 2002 5:44 pm

HI!
Here is what I am presently using. The 6th pedal I put on for "Mooney" stuff./ I had always wanted an "A" in the bottom as well, so I put it on the same pedal.

The RKR inside raises the 9th D to an Eb. It also lowers the 4th to an Eb-- I use this in conjunction with the LKL outside. It lets me raise the 8th E to F and to them drop the 4th E back to an E-- so I get only the 8th string up.

<pre>
LKLo LKLi LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 RKLo RKLi RKRo RKRi

F# G G
Eb D/C#
G# G A
E F Eb F# F# Eb
B Bb C# C# C#
G# G A A Bb
F# F G
E F Eb
D C# Eb
B C#
G# G A A
E C# F#
</pre>

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 27 Mar 2002 8:11 pm

Hello, Winnie, May be a silly question, but do you use your left or right foot to hit the 6th pedal for the Mooney change? Steve

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 28 Mar 2002 3:53 pm

Hey!
Not a silly Question at all!
Like Mooney-- I use my Right foot. Keep my left on A&B and use the right on the E-F#.

Winnie

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 28 Mar 2002 4:12 pm

Winnie, what a guy! Still sharing your soul!
Your are the greatest! Still wish you would come back and visit!
Bobbe

Anders Brundell · Post by **Anders Brundell** » 29 Mar 2002 2:03 am

Thanks Winnie!
I´ll try some of your changes on my own guitar just for curiosity, and I´m pretty sure that I´ll find something useful there, that I´ll keep for the future.
(Funny that I can´t keep from experimenting with new changes, even though I´m lifetimes from knowing the whole potential of my present set up.)
Anders in Falun, Sweden.

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 29 Mar 2002 9:34 pm

Anders!

It took a while to figure out a few things...
The 4th pedal that pulls the B-C# and the G#-A I got from Bill Keith long ago. It gives you a dominant 7th in the pedal down position.
Now the 5th pedal which pulls the G# up to Bb is like the 1st pedal on the C6th-- and I use it mostly within the B6th tuning (with the E's to Eb). BUT.... the 4th pedal on the C6th raises the C to D and the A to B. If you "convert" that to a B6th tuning, you want to raise the B to C# and the G# to Bb...
BUT... On my guitar, I have the 4th pedal-- as above-- right next to the 5th pedal. Push them BOTH and you have the same change as the C6th 4th pedal.

On the C6th you have the 3rd pedal which moves the top E to a F and the bottom E to a Eb.
When I convert this into the B6th tuning, I get that by letting off the E-Eb knee, and catching the D note on the 9th string.

All this said, I am, internally, an E9th country player who likes to get some of the C6th sounds.
I just heard a tape of me at St. Louis a number of years ago. I did a very nice "Girl From Ipanema." It was a surprise hearing it. I had no idea I ever really played it!

I also find that I play a lot of stuff using the 9th streing (D) as the root. Got those ideas from Bill Keith too!

Winnie

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 30 Mar 2002 9:34 am

Winnie:

How about the M7 with P4 on strings 2,3,4,5?
I think I'll printout your setup and discussion.

Anders Brundell · Post by **Anders Brundell** » 30 Mar 2002 1:42 pm

Thanks Winnie!
I´ll turn my guitar upside down, load up with aspirins and try to think and figure it all out.
(BTW: Terry Crisp had (and might still have)the ultimate solution - he had a deeep, soft carpet in the room where he practices, so he just turned his steel upside down on the spot, without any padded wooden frame to put it in like I have in my music room, when he needed to do something in the undercarriage. I bet Snuffy Smith would have done it the same way. Simplicity and efficiency is the way of the genious - ain´t it?)
Anders

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 30 Mar 2002 6:51 pm

Bob!

oops! I said dominant 7th and I MEANT major 7th. With Ped. 4 I got an Amj 7th open on 3,4,5,6

JW

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 30 Mar 2002 9:30 pm

OOps...

Yes, I was one string off.