Be careful who you buy a used pedal steel from.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 3 Jan 2002 10:02 pm

Chas, I will tell you right here on the forum that I want to and will give you double your money back for any guitar you ever bought from me AND I'll pay the shipping, You guys all see this and I mean it! (and this goes for ANYONE that ever bought a Bigsby from me in the '80's or '90's), This is a silly thing to post CUZ I know no one will do it, I just want some of you guys to see that steel guitars(the right older ones) can be great investments if you invest wisely. Many of these guitars I'd gladly pay four times or more for. Bigsbys, Older Emmons P-Ps,Sho-Bud Super Pro II's, Series 1 MSA's,Etc. Think about it, would you rather have money laying in the bank? Or have the same amount invested in steel guitars that are going up in value everyday? I'll take the steels,(or old cars, and airplanes for that matter,but steels eat less)
Bobbe----------III

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 4 Jan 2002 1:02 am

I have had very good experience and saved allot of money with this shipping company:
http://www.baxworld.com/

Bob

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 4 Jan 2002 4:48 am

Peter,

I recommended the Remington to you and I am very sorry to hear that the deal went so badly. Apart from legal action, I think you have two alternatives: return it or restore it.

As Steve Takacs said, there must be carriers that ship cheaper than 1500 $ (that price is outrageous), but it will take a lot of phone calls to locate them.

Michael and others are right too: restoring a steel is not rocket science. We all had to learn to make adjustments and repairs when there are no service shops nearby. The problem lies not in the complicated mechanism (that can be figured out), but in the spare parts you might need. I suggest you make a list of what you need and try to find out which of those parts you could get locally at hardware stores (keeping in mind that the original parts are gauged in inches, not millimeters). The plastic bushings and washers could pose a problem, especially if you have hexagon cross shafts. The parts you can´t get or can´t duplicate yourself, you will get from Remington Steel. Talk to Herb Remington, I´m positive he´ll do anything he can to help you.

If you have any questions about the guitar, please feel free to email me. While I´m no expert by any means, I´ll do my best to help you.

Best regards, Rainer

------------------
Remington D 10 8/8, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8/8, Session 400 LTD

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 4 Jan 2002 5:27 am

Chas and Andy-Thank you both for the words of confidence with me-and Andy I have now located a Bax Global facility nearby so that any future deals that we need to send somthing over to you will hopefully be at a lower shipping cost

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 4 Jan 2002 5:55 am

I'll throw in here again...I did buy Paul W.'s 8-stg dobro and yessirree, I'm enjoying it plenty (I'd be happier if I ever quit fiddling around with different tunings and string guages, etc., and settled in somewhere, though). I, too, have bought many instruments sight unseen over the years and have been fortunate to have had good luck. Only one instrument went back - a 1916 style A-4 Gibson mandolin - but that cost a lot less in shipping than a PSG to/from Capetown, and I was lucky to have done business with an individual who stood by his word for 24 hour approval rights.

Tele · Post by **Tele** » 4 Jan 2002 1:36 pm

This has nothing to do with this subject but I really like the ebay idea of having feedbacks for your user name. So you could tell what kind of person the seller/buyer might be.
Whenever I saw something listed under "Buy and sell" and I have good experiences with the person involved I try to add some feedback there to encourage others.
I never found another community that I would trust more that this one

and I'm glad that I'm a part of it.

Andy

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 4 Jan 2002 2:31 pm

Andy-I personally have not had any luck in dealing with Ebay auctions-the only guitar that I ever got from there was that D-10 Wright custom that you got from me and that was because the deal fell through between parties on Ebay-I do agree with you that the "Buy and Sell" section of this forum is a good thing and even though there is no seller rating like on Ebay-I feel trusting in dealing with fellow Forum members and I am grateful that the feedback on this post in regard to my selling guitars here is favorable

Chris DeBarge · Post by **Chris DeBarge** » 5 Jan 2002 7:39 am

I think peter means it was $1500 shipped, not just that much for shipping.

Peter, if I were you I'd return it. You'll lose the shipping costs, but I feel that if you keep it then George Gruhn will be "getting away with" it, which to me it seems like they were trying to pull a fast one on you. Then take your money to Bobbe or any other steel dealer.

And Andy, I agree with you, I wouldn't even buy a regular guitar from that chiseler, never mind a steel. Especially now, hearing this story.

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 5 Jan 2002 8:16 am

I wonder if George Gruhn is aware of this post? I'd be surprised if he wasn't. I have read Vintage Guitar magazine for a long time, and he seems to be widely respected and one of the major players over there.

If I owned a guitar shop, and I was in Nashville, and I got a steel in and didn't know anything about it, I'd just get on the phone and call one of the many people there that know their stuff and ask how much they'd charge to set it up. If it's not too bad then I'd have them do it and tack it on to the price. Now my professional reputation is still intact. I would not ever lie or misrepresent my products or services.

However, I have noticed that this modus operandi being discussed here is becoming commonplace among all segments of society, not just music dealers or musicians (not all, just some). Car repair, lawyers, doctors ... you name it. If they don't know what they're doing they either don't know it or won't admit it and will just take the job and your money and go through with and deliver a poor performance. It seems as if it's a rare occasion when they'll refer you to someone who really can help you out.

I recently needed some car repair. The shop I took it to diagnosed it and didn't charge me, then referred me to another shop who did a good job. I'd go back to both of these places, and I'd also refer a friend to them.

I know we'd all be interested in how this all turns out.

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 5 Jan 2002 10:22 am

AJM-honesty among vehicle repairmen and "vintage guitar dealers" as well is often non-existent-yes you would think that a man like him would do a little research before the sale-and it is not unlike him to do some checking-I remember several years ago when Mr Gruhn called me to ask some questions about serial number production dates on Bigsby instruments-his store had just acquired the double neck guitar/mandolin that was owned by Grady Martin-and he graciously offered to sell me the guitar-the price??? A whopping $62,500-the guitar was soon sold to the well known collector Scott Chinery who recently passed away-I wonder what his estate will get for that one now???-and as for him and this post on the forum-I doubt that he knows or even cares-my feeling is that he has achieved the noteriety he wants and all he cares about now is the money

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 Jan 2002 11:14 am

"..as for him and this post on the forum-I doubt that he knows or even cares-my feeling is that he has achieved the noteriety he wants and all he cares about now is the money."

Paul, you are so right.
Mr Gruhn has spent 35 years of his life to build a good reputation.
But instead of nurturing this reputation he is allowing his reputation to deteriorate fast. It will take about 3 to 5 years to destroy his hard work by his "funky" money-attitude. If he is in his mid-fifties, what is he going to do the next forty years?

Peter

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 5 Jan 2002 12:01 pm

If he is in his mid-fifties, what is he going to do the next forty years?

I envy and admire your optimism.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 Jan 2002 10:52 pm

Here is a picture of the guitar involved.

Does anybody recognise this PSG and can you tell me something about it?
Someone (who has built Remington guitars for almost 10 years)told me that this is NOT a Remington.
The pickup is a humbucker with adjustable polepieces (grubscrews).
There is no serialnumber (at least, I couldnt find one).

Peter den Hartogh

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 6 Jan 2002 12:49 am

Peter,

I was going to stay completely out of this thread, but I gotta tell you that guitar looks just about exactly like a faked "Emmons" that I had to work on about 2 years ago. I can't see the detail well enough on the photo to determine whether your guitar has square or round steel or hex aluminum cross-shafts. Is there perhaps an additional small steel plate bolted into the bottom of the changer? Is there anything different or unusual about how the pedal bar is mounted? A fellow forumite was able to I.D. the guitar for me but was very discreet about the matter because of some questionable specifics involving the guitar's builder. Perhaps this forumite will E-mail you after seeing the photo. Hope this turns out to be helpful for you as you work through this matter.

Tim R. [This message was edited by Tim Rowley on 06 January 2002 at 01:04 AM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 6 Jan 2002 1:39 am

Hi Tim, this guitar has hex cross shafts and the contruction looks quite robust. In fact, I have a Fender/ShoBud Artist S10 and that Fender contruction looks much lighter with thinner shafts, bellcranks and pedal stops.
(But the Fender is the smoothest PSG I ever felt).

I cannot seem to find an additional small steelplate at the bottom of the changer.

This guitar has 3 Remington decals, 1 on the front, one on the back where your belt-buckle would touch the guitar when playing, and one on the pedal bar.

Someone added an 8th pedal and probably shifted the other 7 pedals towards the end with the tuning keys. On the picture you can count the pedal stops from pedal 1 and see that the stop on 8 is not original. they also shifted the RKL yo make way for pedal 8.
There is also a middle kneelever that I presume could be a vertical lever, however it flops around from left to right not holding any position.
You can also see that RKL has no stop.
The changer has to be taken out and "De-Gunged".

The front legs are not adjustable, just fixed short pipes fixed inside the pedal bar, being gripped by the the knurled front leg parts.

I hope this gives enough info.

Peter den Hartogh

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 6 Jan 2002 6:36 am

Peter-Im sorry to see that not only were you deceived by the supposed condition of the instrument but as to the supposed maker as well-while this type of thing may be thinkable as coming from someone who does not specialize with steel guitars(such as Gruhn) I am here to say that unfortunately this type of deception has been perpetrated by vendors who specialize in steel guitars as well-and I have fallen victim to it myself several times-some years ago I purchased a steel from someone that I had done several previous deals with-the guitar was deliberately and grossly misrepresented as to the intrinsic value of being supposedly owned by a very famous player-which after some research I found out that I had paid a premium price for something which was counterfeit-I considered taking legal action against the seller for "Deliberately,Deceitfully,Fraudulently,and Feloniously" misrepresenting the instrument at the time of sale with regard to the alleged intrinsic value of the prior ownership-then about a year ago I made a trade with a fellow forumite who was wanting to trade his double neck to get a single neck instead-so I offered my single neck in trade-the double neck was sold to the other guy(I believe he was novice player)as being a brand XXX manufactured guitar when in actuality it was a brand ZZZ made guitar which is an inferior instrument to the brand XXX-although similiar in appearance-the seller apparently even removed the original manufacturors decal from the front area(also removing some of the finish)and replaced it with a decal for a brand XXX guitar-when I received the double neck from the other guy I realized that it was not the brand XXX guitar that I had expected to get-the guy who traded it to me was shocked to find out that he had been deceived buy the seller who from his many years of dealing would have certainly known if the guitar had come to him(the seller)that way that it was certainly not a genuine brand XXX guitar-and as it turns out the guy bought the double neck he traded me from the same dealer who ripped me off before-so as they say in Latin "CAVEAT EMPTOR" especially when buying a used pedal steel that you are not sitting down behind[This message was edited by PAUL WARNIK on 06 January 2002 at 12:56 PM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 6 Jan 2002 7:58 am

Peter,

Looking at the photo of your guitar I can´t tell if it is a Remington or not.

On the PRO side:
1. The general appearance and the Cush Case.
2. The mechanism of the indirect levers (those moving to the right).
3. The hexagon aluminum cross shafts.
4. The way the pedal bar is attached to the front legs (short tubes screwed to the bar that slide into the front legs - I find that very convenient).
5. Pull rods are attached to the bell crank by a simple hook in the rod.
6. Pull rods are bent if there is not enough room to rod them in a straight line.

On the CON side:
1. The pedals look different.
2. The apron facing the player is not as wide as the front apron (cut out).
3. The bell cranks look a little different - mine look like a comb or two E´s on top of each other, not a flat piece of metal with holes in them.
4. The third decal facing the player. Mine has two decals: in the middle of the front apron, and on the pedal bar. Both are clear plastic stickers.

Any of these differences could be due to model changes over the years. Bell cranks that I ordered after receiving the guitar look different than the "originals". Remington now uses square cross shafts instead of the hexagon ones on mine and yours.
If you want to make sure that it is indeed a Remington, mail those photos to Herb Remington, he´ll know.

BTW, the knee levers are attached to the cranks with screws that have self-fixing nuts (a plastic bushing in the nut). If the middle lever "flops around", you can put it into a fixed position by fastening that nut.

The "stops" for the levers are simple L-shaped aluminum plates with a machine screw in the upper part of the L, against which the crank of the lever stops. If one is missing you can easily make one yourself (I´ve done it

).

Generally: Remingtons have a certain "hand-made" quality to them. Not all the parts in the undercarriage are exactly the same. They are modified by hand to make them fit into a crowded undercarriage. So if there are parts on your guitar that should be identical but aren´t - I´d count that on the "PRO" side. But only Herb will know for sure, you really should ask him, everything else anybody says (including me) is only speculation.

If a Remington is set up right, it is one of the easiest playing and best sounding steels - bar none.

Best regards,
Rainer

------------------
Remington D 10 8/8, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8/8, Session 400 LTD

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 6 Jan 2002 11:02 am

Oh yeah I almost forgot another story of deceit involving the same vendor-about three years ago I was called by a friend with whom I have done much steel guitar business-he advised me of a certain very rare guitar that was available for sale-this instrument was allegedly used on a well known recording by a famous player-again according to the seller that my friend knew-so I made the deal for the guitar with my friends help and took delivery of the guitar at Scottys show-it just so happened that the famous player was in attendance at Scottys-when I asked him about the guitar he said that in fact he had never played the instrument and it was not the one that he used on the well known recording-another falsity perpertrated by the same unscrupulous vendor who commited the other bogus acts

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 6 Jan 2002 11:27 am

Peter,

Have you personally spoke to the owner of the company? I mean the top dog... not a VP or sales rep. This is a long thread and nothing popped out where you spoke to the Main guy. It has been my experience that a company in business for over 2 decades has done something right. And keeping a customer happy and treating them fairly are mandatory to enjoy such a reputation. I would recommend that you contact the "OWNER" of the company and talk to him on the phone (not email). Be calm, and have all the facts. Do NOT talk to anyone except the top dog, CEO, Pres. I just find it hard that he would consider his reputaion worth $1500. In a nice manner, let him know that just because your not in the USA does not mean you do not have contacts here... ie: SteelGuitarForum. Compliment his reputation and let him know that you find it hard to believe he would be aware of such an event... and you need his help. I would personnaly like to know what happens.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 6 Jan 2002 1:01 pm

Jeff, I have been dealing with Calvin Minner from Gruhn Guitars.
Calvin has been courteous and helpful. When the guitar arrived, I complained and Calvin offered a refund WITHOUT shipping, or alternatively they would give me a discount of $250 for repairs.

As this was not acceptable, I asked to deal with Mr Gruhn. This was refused. I then mentioned I would take the matter to the forum. Only then Mr Gruhn replied.

I explained that he was responsible for the shipping as it was his company who dumped an unplayable instrument in an unsuspecting third world country.

In addition I pointed out his misleading policy :"We strive to ensure your satisfaction with these Gruhn Guarantees: Expert inspection and repair -- including setup. Our staff of six full-time repairmen sees that every instrument arrives ready to play (except those sold "as is"). We go to great lengths to ensure that all instruments are properly restored and set up in optimum playing order."

His response:
"I am willing to pay reasonable repair costs or refund the purchase price if
you return the instrument, but that is all I can do."

I suggested to him that a legal battle lasting a couple of years could cost him more than the actual guitar.

His words:
"I am not in a position to offer more."

Now I received some messages telling me that the guitar may not be genuine.

This may prejudice Mr Gruhn's situation.

Everyone, Hang in there, I will keep you informed.

Peter

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 6 Jan 2002 1:50 pm

Peter , you have been screwed, with or without perpose.
As far as I can see, this is not an original Remington, and that is what they told you, didn't they?
So they sent you something wrong, something you didn't pay for. So they have a problem, not you. As this is a shop with a good reputation and good bussiness, they probably will have an insurence for mistakes like this. If not, find yourself in the States a good lawyer!
It's your money, that not really belongs to them in this case, go for it!
JJ

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 7 Jan 2002 11:37 am

Johan, you are right..
I emailed Mr Gruhn the facts about this "Remington".
He just replied:"I have offered all that I can do."

You draw your own conclusions.

Peter

Tele · Post by **Tele** » 7 Jan 2002 12:14 pm

Try to contact Herb Remington, if this isn't a real one I'd proceed with legal action.

I cannot believe Mr. Gruhn is not willing to accept to refund ALL your expenses, how stupid is this !!?

But then, from my own experience with this company I can imagine which policy stands behind it.

Andy

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 7 Jan 2002 4:59 pm

All of this from a man who has never changed his clothes(always the same brown tweed sportjacket and sandals)or bathed in last 10 years-whew-no wonder his doctorate degree is in the study of the behavior of rats

Louie Hallford · Post by **Louie Hallford** » 7 Jan 2002 6:03 pm

Peter,I am sure you are getting all kinds of advice so let me put my 2 cents worth in.

Not being from Tennesse,I am not sure what the law is there,but in Texas we have a small claims court where cases similar to yours can be filed. This court deals in cases below 5000 dollars.

For $55 you can file your case. Normally you would have to be present to present your case,but I can't believe that a judge would not allow you to present your complaint by mail,email or by phone since you do not live in the USA.

The defendent is required to show up for court or judgement is automatically made against him.

If you do get judgement and he refuses to pay,you can pay another $75 and a deputy is allowed to go to the defendents place of business and confiscate enough items to cover the cost of your losses,including court cost.You should in my opinion also get you shipping cost and any other expenses you have .The items are sold by the court and you get cash

In the State of Texas this activity occurs in a Justice of Peace court and the field work is handled by a constable.[This message was edited by louie hallford on 07 January 2002 at 06:05 PM.][This message was edited by louie hallford on 07 January 2002 at 06:08 PM.]