Right knee levers - new steeler seeking advice

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

I'm a newcomer to PSG - been playing for 4 months.
I pretty much understand the LKLs - I've got E raise and lower on LKL and LKR + B to B- on LKV. I may not yet be fluent in their use but I do get the general idea.
I'm more puzzled by the right knee levers - their function, and perhaps how to make changes.
Under what circumstances would the RKL drop G+ to F+ be utilised? Can anyone suggest where I could hear this being used - on YouTube or maybe one of Mickey Adams' excellent video lessons?
My other question is regarding the RKR which currently drops the 2nd string E- to D. I see copedents that seem to have both C+ and D on this lever. How is this achieved - is it the equivalent of a 'half lever' to hit the D and the full lever the C+? If it is the lever, how do I get the C+ when turning the nylon hex to reach C+ results in it seeming to have reached the end of its thread and won't turn any further before the note is reached. Do I need to 'lengthen' the throw of the lever by adjusting the stopping screw underneath to get the throw far enough to reach C+ or is some other 'magic' involved?
I'd be most grateful for thoughts, suggestions and advice.
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I'll give it a shot, Alan

RKL = G# to F# on the 6th string

If you think about the open A chord on strings 6B,5A,4 (the A and B pedals down)
Notes are A C# E == an A Major triad with A on the bottom
If you rock OFF THE A PEDAL you have lowered the 3rd to 2nd/9th tone on the 5th string. That is a characteristic pedal steel sound -- rocking on and off the A pedal with the B pedal down. The chord produced rocking off the A pedal is Aadd9.
Notes are A B E
Combined with the G# to A change it produces the even MORE characteristic 1 to 4 chord movement (in this case, E to AMaj)

That's probably familiar to you

Now, take that AMaj triad to the 5th fret with no pedals, strings 8,6,5
That's A C# E (same chord as before with pedals down open)
Now lower the 6th from G# to F#
That's A B E (again the 3rd tone is lowered to the 2nd/9th) -- an Aadd9 chord
SAME CHANGE, different context, different strings (therefore different sound)

The plot thickens . . .
So G# to F# is an 'inverse A pedal' -- same change as letting OFF the A pedal
The inverse of the B pedal is your LKR -- E to D# change
Play 8b,6bb,5 (flat Es to D# and G# to F#)
On the 5th fret, that's G# B E
Let off the levers
That's A C# E -- the equivalent of hitting the A and B pedals (a 1 to 4 / EMaj to AMaj chord change)

THERE IS A LOT OF MUSIC THERE

For the 2nd string change, I'll just remind you that you are changing the 2nd string to be the same pitch (one octave higher) as the 9th string. It gives you a DOMINANT seventh chord when added to a major triad.
on strings 8,6,5,2b you will find E7 in the open position. If you don't flat the 2nd string that same chord would be EMaj7. There are other uses as well.

Yes, when you see the 2nd lowered to D/C# there is usually some type of half stop, either spring loaded or timed to hit the half stop with the 9th is lowered D to C# on that same lever.

Hope this helps 'splain it.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Larry, fine job as always. I would just like to add that the 6th string G# to F# change along with the knee lever that lowers the E's to D# give you another major chord inversion. If you play an A chord at the 12th fret with A&B pedals down, you can get another A chord at the 10th fret using the 6th lower and E lowers. You also get some great moving tones on string 6 in this position, being able to get from a 5 note of the chord up to the 7th without moving your bar, and all notes in between. This is my 3rd most used knee lever after the E raises and Lowers.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Larry and Richard
I am indebted to you both for taking the time to explain in such great detail.
Sitting at the psg and trying these suggestions out made great sense and yes, there's a lot of music there!
Any ideas how I might achieve the full tone drop on 2nd string when the nylon hex screw seems to have tightened completely before I can reach the C+ note? If I can drop the string the full tone I can at least try and manage the half-stop on the knee lever to achieve the Dom 7th and hear what the full drop (6th?) sounds like (and how I might apply it).
Very grateful for your support and advice.
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Alan,
The leverage and mechanism of the lever must be adjusted to allow enough side-to-side motion to move the changer the desired whole tone drop. This usually includes turning a thumbscrew that serves both as an adjustment and a movable stop for the motion of the lever. You can pull the lower finger with a pair of needle nose pliers and determine approximately how far the lever must move. Most guitars have no problem lowering a 015 (the usual gauge) from D# to C#.

Others with more mechanical knowledge might help as well. This is the 'skinny' on the situation: you need to increase the 'throw' of the lever. You may also need to change which hole the pull rod is located in the bellcrank, but try just increasing the travel first.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

Hi Alan,
I, and many others, like the RKL lowering the E's.
I find this to be more of a Sho bud set up and Lowering the E's on LKR, more of a Emmons thing. This change, no matter where you put it, is great for minors, Maj 7th's, and 9th chords and more.
The RKR is usually ,dropping the 9th string 1/2 step also, plus lowering the 2nd either 1/2 or one whole. What kind of steel is it?
Have fun and welcome. RP
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

As Larry said, you need to adjust the length of knee lever travel to get the needed travel to lower the string to C#. Then you will need another rod on the lever to start activating another string at the point the 2nd string gets to D. If this lever is on your right knee lever, there is probably already a string being pulled on the bottom neck (if it's a D10) and the at pull can be adjusted to be the half stop feel point. If it's a single neck, a lot of players use a pull on string 9 to lower it from D to C# and adjust that pull to be the feel point of the half stop.

Knowing the details of what guitar you have could help us a lot. Brand, D10 or S10, etc...
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Hi guys - thanks for persevering with my questioning. I think anything involving pliers is 'off-limits' for me as I fear I could do more harm than good. I think I'll stick to the half-tone drop on the 2nd string - let's face it, there's years of learning ahead without going 'off piste' just yet!
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Alan
The advice given above is good information.

In the interest of musical correctness and communication, I would advise you to get in the habit of using the " # " and "b" (lower case letter B) signs to signify a note is a sharp or a flat.

In accepted musical chord symbol protocol, the plus and minus signs signify other chord functions; specifically augmented chords (+), and minor chords (-).

It's rare that two musicians speak the same musical language completely, but this is one protocol with which everyone agrees.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Thank you Herb - noted. My 'new steeler' pseudonym applies equally to computers! I adopted the previous habit from noting copedents that indicated ++ (for example). I guess they mean two semitones (raise, in this example). I shall use # and b from now on.
The best thing about this Forum is that a legend of steel guitar has taken the time to help me on my way - as many others do daily. Thanks to all! Whoa!

_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

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