Newbie - Pedal or Lap?

Jim McConnell · Post by **Jim McConnell** » 6 Jan 2012 9:49 am

Hello - I've been a visitor on the site, mainly reading posts about Lap Steels. Great group and informative. Never played slide but long history on guitar (and collecting them - yikes!) and resources are $500 tops. The more I read, the more I'm intrigued with pedal steel. As a beginner, should I start with a Lap in the range of a Rouge Jersey Lightning or Goldtone or ?? and then move right into a Pedal? I have read that MSA sidekicks, GFI's or Carter Starters are recommended by some, but all appear out of my $ range. I have come across a MSA Red Baron that might be do-able. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Andy Jones · Post by **Andy Jones** » 6 Jan 2012 10:18 am

Jim,as a player for about 6 years,I've been familiar with both lap and pedal steel sounds for many years.When I finally decided to get involved,I went straight to the pedal steel as this was the sound I wanted.

I also own a lap steel that I seldom play because the E9th tuning is what I favor.Maybe I should get busy with it,too.

As for a starter guitar,there are plenty of reasonable MSA Classics for sale on the forum from time to time.Very good guitars,stay in tune,and are quality built;they are just very heavy.

From what I gather from most on the forum,the GFI is an excellent guitar for either a starter or a keeper.I've never played one myself.

A lot of people say the Sidekick,Red Baron,Carter Starter.and the Sho-Bud Maverick are not really great guitars to learn on because of several limitations.I don't know;I've never played any of these,either.

I would go for 3 pedals and at least 3 knee levers.Those will keep you busy for the rest of your life.This I do know to be true.

Andy

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 6 Jan 2012 1:27 pm

What does a "Lap Steel" encompass ? Is it just a single neck that sits on your lap ? I propose three categories of Steel Guitars.
Lap Steels[as above).

"Console Steels" that are on legs or stands that hve two, three or four necks that are "non pedal".

finally, of course "Pedal Steels".

For "Newbies" who are really musically inclined, I suggest starting out with a two or three necked "Consule Steel" with at least eight strings on each neck with a 6th and 13th tunings. Once you get the basics you will be much more prepared to move into a Pedal Steel.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 6 Jan 2012 1:29 pm

I do NOT recommend a lap steel as a bridge/stepping stone to pedal steel.
The thinking on the two differs greatly.
If you WANT to play both, that's fine.
If I personally ended up with a Red Baron/Sidekick/Maverick, I'd also end up with a lot of bar slants, trying to make up for the missing knees. If $500 is your budget, go ahead and get that Baron. It'll be hard to find many guitars in that range.
See if there are any steel players in the area, and see if they'll give it a play, to see if it plays smooth. as long as it's in good shape mechanically, get it.

Joe Hensley · Post by **Joe Hensley** » 6 Jan 2012 3:50 pm

Hello fellow Idahoan. I had always wanted to play Pedal Steel, however had no idea where to start (and frankly couldn't afford it until a few years ago)...so I picked up a 6 String Lap steel...

Short story: Go big and go right for the pedal steel - my first was a $300 Little Buddy 3/1 E9 set up that lasted me a couple years until I needed (wanted) more knee levers. I don't miss the Lap Steel at all and you might as well challenge yourself right off the bat if you really want to end up playing the PSG.

MSA Red Baron, Sho-Bud Maverick, etc...would get you started, although most on the board (including myself) would recommend saving a bit more for a Stage One or CarpSteel/Legend or used MSA Classic or the like.

Ben Feher · Post by **Ben Feher** » 6 Jan 2012 10:29 pm

I'm going to vote lap first, but with progression in mind.

Pedal steel can be overwhelming at first. There is simply so much going on at once. If you are looking to learn how to play steel guitar, I think a simple tuning, with some strum-ability and not too many intervals is a great way to start getting your head around how to play steel guitar. It is a totally different way of thinking about a stringed instrument. If you have never used finger picks before, that can be a real learning curve in and of itself. A few weeks/months on a simple 6 string lap steel will teach you the same basic skills of playing steel guitar as a pedal steel, but it can be less intimidating and more forgiving. And less expensive...

Ultimately it depends what your going for. If you are a tab junky and just want to get tabs of a song and play exactly what is written, then maybe going right to pedal steel is best because you will need all those strings and pedals. On the other hand, if you are really looking to learn to play steel guitar your own way, I think 6 strings and a simple tuning is a great start.

E B E G# B E (low-hi) translates really well from guitar if your just starting off. If you can make music with that, and learn how steel guitar works. When you're ready to "outgrow" that, you should try B6: B D# F# G# B D#. It'll give you a full minor chord, as well as major, and the F# and G# next to eachother teaches you to avoid strings. Why B6th? Cause its a basic E9th position. If you can make music on those two tunings, and want more, its time for a pedal steel.

All you honestly need is a crappy electric guitar with a warped neck of craigslist, and a $8 nut raiser and a few sets of strings. It'll get you ready so when you do get your pedal steel, you'll feel right at home. Its worth spending a month or two with a "limited" tuning to get you used to holding the bar, playing in tune, thinking in intervals, and using fingerpicks before you have to start worrying about pedals and levers and strings you have to avoid...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Jan 2012 6:10 am

My main problem with Ben's approach lies in that $500 cap. Unless he puts a nut extender on a guitar he already owns (an idea that only popped into my head as I wrote the first sentence), a lap steel would eat into that cap, precluding a good steel.

That, and the fact that pedal vs. lap tends to engender different mindsets. Then again, I came to pedal steel from two years of GBDGBD bluegrass Dobro, possibly taking for granted my already having bar work.

Don't buy a lap steel, if you wanna try lap style, throw an extender on a guitar you already have, especially if you have a Strat or Stratoclone. I like the tone I get out of mine. I use GBDGBD.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 7 Jan 2012 6:55 am

All good comments and advice, but I see anyone addressing the main distinction between the two instruments.

Jim, the decision of whether to play lap or pedal steel depends on the style(s) of music you intend to play. They're just plain different instruments in terms of what they're capable of. If you like older styles like vintage swing, jazz, blues or even Hawaiian, then non-pedal steel in 6, 8, or 10 string variations will take you as far as you can imagine going. If you intend to learn to play country music whether it's honky-tonk classics or Nashville hits, you need pedal steel...period.

There's some crossover, of course. You can "fake" some pedal steel licks on a lap steel, but even the best players bump up against the limitations pretty quickly. There's far more capability of playing standard non-pedal repertoire on pedal steel, especially with some sort of a universal set up, but the tone is fundamentally different and it isn't a perfect substitute.

First, decide where your musical preferences are. If you love Western swing and vintage (pre-Pedal steel) country and truly intend to learn some of that stuff, then lap steel is the place to start and can help prepare you with some basic technique that will make the eventual transition to pedal steel a little easier. If you don't intend to focus on those non-pedal styles, find the best pedal steel you can and get going.

Ben Feher · Post by **Ben Feher** » 7 Jan 2012 7:09 am

Lane Gray wrote:My main problem with Ben's approach lies in that $500 cap. Unless he puts a nut extender on a guitar he already owns (an idea that only popped into my head as I wrote the first sentence), a lap steel would eat into that cap, precluding a good steel.

That, and the fact that pedal vs. lap tends to engender different mindsets. Then again, I came to pedal steel from two years of GBDGBD bluegrass Dobro, possibly taking for granted my already having bar work.

Don't buy a lap steel, if you wanna try lap style, throw an extender on a guitar you already have, especially if you have a Strat or Stratoclone. I like the tone I get out of mine. I use GBDGBD.

Yes, I agree with all the points above. However, the real key point is those two years of dobro would make picking up pedal steel vastly easeir than the OP with no steel experience.

Plain guitar with nut raiser and then save up gets my vote. As I'm sure others will point out, $500 is not going to get the OP anything that resembles a fully functional pedal steel. Better to get a little expereince playing slide on the cheap and while that is going on save up for the real deal. Also, a volume pedal would be a worthwhile investment, its a big part of "the sound."

GBDGBD is an awesome tuning, I really love it, but since the goal is pedal steel, something that resembles pedal steel tuning might make more sense in the long run. Just be careful with gauges, you don't want to over stress that guitar neck.

I honestly think, for the 1st few months/weeks the fundimental and basic skills you really need to be working on to play pedal steel, you can learn on just a guitar with a nut raiser. Keep in mind the poster has no expereince playing slide.

I'm not suggesting deciding to play "lap" forever, but maybe a couple weeks to a few months. Take that time to raise a little more money (I know its heresy, but maybe sell something from the 'collection'). Also during that time, really, really study the e9th tuning, know exacly what all the strings/grips/lever combinations do so that when you do get your steel, you've been dreaming about it for so long that you already know how to play it!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Jan 2012 7:24 am

GBDGAD with ring finger pulls to B? That can be fun

Jim McConnell · Post by **Jim McConnell** » 7 Jan 2012 8:10 am

Thanks to all for the comments and recommendations! It sounds like if I move directly into Pedal, a 3 pedal/3-4 lever is the way to go. I prefer quality instruments and with that said, looks like I'll have dig deeper and keep my eyes peeled. Since the posts started, I located a GFI S-10SM 3x4 for $ eight, otherwise MSA's and similar are over double my price point.
I'm intrigued with setting up a current guitar, but I wouldn't attempt it on my 6 string acoustic collection. I do have a 70's Japan 12 string acoustic that I can try converting to 6, using the nut extender. Agreed this would get me learning to explore open tunings and using a slide bar for a time.
As for a specific style of music, my playing style is in R&B, folk/rock genres, but I like listening to a wide variety including jazz and country.
Thanks to All// as the forum has been unbelievably helpful!

Jim McConnell · Post by **Jim McConnell** » 7 Jan 2012 9:26 am

One final question on converting my current 12 string to 6 using a nut extender.
Any change string gauges to achieve the GBDGAD tuning as suggested?
Also, any preferred bar model/type to use?
Setting it up today!

Hal Braun · Post by **Hal Braun** » 9 Jan 2012 4:04 pm

To me.. a dobro.. or a "converted guitar" is not lap or pedal like.. and a different animal. I too came from the guitar camp (never messed with dobro.. just a little slide guitar)

My dad played pedal steel all my life, and I really wanted to play one. After trying (unsuccessfully)I am now quite content to play lap/console steels. I think the primary reason was maybe partially the learning curve with the pedal.. but more importantly to me was the "mechanical" nature compared to a lap/console.

Again.. per your stated music preferences of R&B, folk/rock genres, (similar to mine) the lap/console fits that better for me.. I play 8 string C6 tuning.. you can get really nice guitars for $500 that sound awesome, and not being a "multitasker" it is easier for me to just concentrate on my fingers/bar/ears.

There is beautiful music made by both instruments.. and you will probably end up trying both at some point.. either way, it is a fun trip! (it can just get expensive.. just ask the forum members that have bought my pedal steels

)

PS.. most teachers I have talked to suggest using a round bullet nose bar for pedal or lap.. the difference is typically the lap bar is a little smaller in diameter. I use the Dunlop 918 3/4" X 2 15/16" bar.. most pedal players seem to use a 7/8" or 1" bar.. very few use the "Stevens" bar you see used by dobro players quite a bit..

Walter Bowden · Post by **Walter Bowden** » 9 Jan 2012 5:54 pm

Hey Jim. If I may enter the discussion I see your original post said you were intrigued with PEDAL steel.

If you want that "sound" of bending strings with pedals to make the music you are "intrigued" by, the answer is simple really. You will need a pedal steel to get that sound.

BTW, you will get some great advice, opinions and help from this site as I have greatly benefited from the wisdom and experience of others here.

Best wishes, Walter

Jack Aldrich · Post by **Jack Aldrich** » 9 Jan 2012 6:16 pm

IMHO, and in my expreience, it's easier to go from pedal steel to lap steel. And, as well, there are things I learned playing lap steel that I can apply to pedal steel, especially learning Jeerry Byrd's "touch and tone" from Alan Akaka, one of Jerry's primo students. That awareness of where the bar is and what it is doing is priceless.
- Jack

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 9 Jan 2012 8:33 pm

the normal dobro tuning is GBDGBD, but for a converted round neck instrument, you might want to consider DGDGBD - another common tuning, which puts much less stress on the thinner neck of a converted round neck, as compared to a square neck that can take the stress....

I used Martin Resonator Strings for that tuning on my roundneck resonator....they are designed for GBDGBD, so aren't as tight for DGDGBD, so they work on a round neck pretty well, and you don't have to create a set from separate strings.

$4 a set...
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessor ... ar-strings

but I've switched over to E6 (EG#BC#EG#) for 6 string so it is easier to relate to my pedal steel....I have lots of pedal steel string sets and just cannabalize those for my 6-string and 8-string lap steels...

Jim McConnell · Post by **Jim McConnell** » 10 Jan 2012 7:04 am

Thanks for the additional posts! Steve, I tried converting the acoustic and the tension using GBDGBD and I didn't feel comfortable with the stress. Will try the DGDGBD with the Martin Res. strings. On your recommended E6 tuning using pedal strings, is that on your 6-string Lap?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 10 Jan 2012 8:54 am

I'd point out that as to price point, almost all playable singlenecks will cost around 900. Kinda like any car will cost a grand; if it's cheaper, you'll have to invest the balance in repairs. Unless you wanna do the work yourself. Exceptions exist, but a cheap pedal steel will probably need work.
I like that E6 idea.

Ben Feher · Post by **Ben Feher** » 10 Jan 2012 10:02 am

Also worth considering:

http://www.juststrings.com/jps-7380.html

c6th = CEGACE low-hi, Cmajor triad on the "bass" and A minor triad on the "treble." Tons of instruction out there for this tuning also, wich is a major plus.

I'd recommend that if pedal steel is the goal to drop it down to B6th (B D# F# G# B D#) because it means that the cord positions will match up with where they will be on pedal steel (E-D# lever) -- D is 3rd fret, E 5th, etc... Its also slighlty less tension. Even less tension would be A6th, A C# E F# A C# and thas still useful since it too mirrors a tuing that you would encounter on a steel guitar (AB pedals down) so that you'll still have that convient "carry over" when you get your pedal steel.

And its a very "steel guitar" type tuning as opposed to "slide guitar" with its close intervals and very versitile with both a full major and minor triad. It will mean a tiny amount of transposing if you get c6th instrudtional material / videos, but thats a great skill to have and its really just +1 (+3 for A6th) fret for everything.

Ben Feher · Post by **Ben Feher** » 10 Jan 2012 10:11 am

Also, this is the higer quality of the extension nut options I've found:
http://elderly.com/accessories/items/EN02.htm

My suggestion for a bar to start out with is:
http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BOPGS.htm

And I really like these fingerpicks they are sooooo comfortable, but some find that the second band tends to catch on the strings but I don't find it to be an issue:
http://elderly.com/accessories/items/PK44SP-NKL-2.htm

And don't forget the piggy bank for your pedal steel

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 10 Jan 2012 10:40 am

My two cents? Well, glad you asked!!

Your goal is pedal steel. Go for pedal steel.

Keep adding to your $500 cache. When, as the gang imply, you get in the $900 range, start seriously looking. For $900-1200, you can find an S 10 that is ready to go, needs no rehabilitation or repair, and has the basic 3 and 4 on it already.

And that used GFI or MSA or Derby or Thomas or Wilcox will hold its value and be a desirable for another learner should you decide that steel is not for you--or that you want to move up from there.

That's my two cents.

Chris

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 10 Jan 2012 10:53 am

Jim McConnell wrote:Hello - I've been a visitor on the site, mainly reading posts about Lap Steels. Great group and informative. Never played slide but long history on guitar (and collecting them - yikes!) and resources are $500 tops.

My advise would be to sell a guitar or two and get the other grand you need.
There are some nice Pedal Steels in Buy and Sell in the +/-$1500 range.
I saw a Carter S12U in that range.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=217577

Lap is way harder than pedal if you plan to play it with a band soon.
Imhe... As a Novice>Beginner>Advanced-Beginner>Intermediate you're more likely to make the whole band sound out of tune with a Lap steel.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 10 Jan 2012 2:34 pm

Yes, that tuning was for 6 string lap, basically 5 pedal steel strings and a C#, which does what the A pedal on a pedal steel does....

And lap steel might be harder, as Pete says, unless you avoid slants, but then you won'd be able to do the pedal transition sounds

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 10 Jan 2012 3:06 pm

Why waste your time with a fixed no pedal tuning if your ultimate goal is pedal steel? You can't learn anything about pedals until you have them.

Buy the best modern pedal steel you can afford. Many of the builders offer an economy model pedal guitar at a substantial cost savings.

Get something with no less than 3 pedals and 4 knees already installed. Upgrades for older guitars are becoming increasingly expensive, so you're better off to have it already installed when you receive it. You will always be feeling your guitar is inadequate if you don't have them to start with.

You can learn on a cheap Carter Starter, or step up to a Stage One, or further up to a Mullen Discovery, ETS which b0b sells here on the forum, or similar flight guitar if your requirements are for one neck only.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 10 Jan 2012 3:07 pm

You can get pedal sounds without slants. Tune the third tone down to a 9, hook it behind the bar with a ring finger and pull it. Hard on ten-string due to string spacing, but a cinch on a 6.