Study on finding Tone

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 3 Jan 2012 1:31 pm

I got this right and it is interesting.
How did you do and what do you think of this method of testing double blind?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecaden ... ad?ps=cprs

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 3 Jan 2012 5:17 pm

Ken that is fascinating. I got them backwards, but I could definitely tell a difference. The second one had less midrange in the sound.

I am a firm believer in "Blind AB testing". I am always surprised by how many people (including me) "listen with their eyes".

Relevant audiophile video by Ethan Winer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
My favorite part is at 3:20 about the fake switch.

Good post.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 3 Jan 2012 8:55 pm

Interesting! And funny that I got it right only by going against my instincts. I liked the sound of the modern better, and instead of assuming the Strad would sound best, I took the opposite path. This is proof why black guitars look like they sound better.

Clete

Ivan Posa · Post by **Ivan Posa** » 4 Jan 2012 12:44 am

The same applies to blind testing of Steel guitars. Most would have no idea which was what brand.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 4 Jan 2012 5:42 am

The dark goggles go on the players and the listeners can not see what is being played..
It would be fun to do this up in Dallas..

Don Hinkle · Post by **Don Hinkle** » 4 Jan 2012 5:59 am

Same here.. I picked # 1 to sound better and more like a pleasing sounding violin to my ears anyway.

and yes, my black emmons sounds better than my red one.. he he

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 4 Jan 2012 6:04 am

There are good sounding fiddles/violins and bad sounding fiddles. Both of these were very good ones! I have no preference and certainly had no idea which was which. It's more than tone that counts. Cheap viiolins don't respond or produce sound as soon as the bow moves across the strings and they don't resonate as well when multiple strings are played at the same time. Tommy Jackson's fiddle on the Ray Price recordings is my favorite fiddle tone and you can hear how well it responds and resonates when he plays the short pick up notes.

Greg

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 4 Jan 2012 6:37 am

I certainly don't know much about violins and it was a lucky guess.
The method of testing and results is what I found to be interesting.
The point of double blind is that the player is blind also.

Roger Francis · Post by **Roger Francis** » 4 Jan 2012 8:16 am

i picked the second one also, the tone sounded a little deeper or breathed better. I listened twice before i went to the end to find out.

Johnny Thomasson · Post by **Johnny Thomasson** » 4 Jan 2012 9:40 am

I've been fortunate to have handled and played seven authenticated Stradivari fiddles/violins in my lifetime. No two were alike, or even similar. Out of the seven, one really stood out (and I mean really stood out, more on that one later). Although all were beautiful, the other six were rather ordinary in tone and response. All were what I'd call very nice, but I've seen (and owned) many modern fiddles I'd put in front of those six in terms of tone and response.

One was truly extraordinary. I don't think anyone with one good ear would have had trouble picking that one out in a double blind test. Power, balance, crystal clarity, huge dynamic range and instantaneous response... that fiddle had it all. So, like many other things, it depends. Not every Emmons push pull sounds like The Blade. There are just too many variables to make broad generalizations. If I'd moved either end of the sound post on the "best" Strad one millimeter in any direction, it would have changed everything.

I picked the Strad on Ken's linked page easily. If you'll listen to both clips carefully, you'll notice a touch of "raspiness" in the sound of the other one. Some may like that, and that's fine. But it's a form of distortion that's produced when the plates (the top and back) don't respond efficiently to the vibration of the strings. A violin is essentially a wooden amplifier... an amazing piece of engineering, really. I did find it a little surprising that the professional violinists had trouble identifying the good stuff. I tend to think the instruments were not set up for optimal performance.

Edited to say that I could not have identified the Strad clip as a Stradivari violin, only that it was the better instrument of the two by a good margin.

Both sounded good, but the Stradivari took the prize in this comparison. It was definitely the one I would have picked to take home.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 4 Jan 2012 11:20 am

I started a thread about two years ago stating I have been doing blind fold tests for over thirty years at MSA, and not one person has had the ability to identify any specific steel guitar brand consistently.

I also asked that if someone was able to do so, would they please come on the forum and tell us. Since that time I haven't seen anyone do so, nor has anyone told me they saw someone come forward.

I have concluded it's not possible to identify ANY specific brand of steel guitar, nor is it possible to identify any specific guitar of the same brand, within the parameters I outlined.

Ian Sutton · Post by **Ian Sutton** » 4 Jan 2012 11:47 am

That was a great little article! What's the old saying in the studio? "if it sounds right, it is right." and there's always "trust your ears."

Johnny Thomasson · Post by **Johnny Thomasson** » 4 Jan 2012 11:50 am

Mr. Anderson, if you ever do find such a person, please let me know so I can introduce myself and shake his hand. After many years of intensive ear training, I certainly can't do it. I can hear differences between instruments, but not to the extent that I could identify a brand. I seriously doubt I could pick my own steel out of a lineup blindfolded.

Ransom Beers · Post by **Ransom Beers** » 4 Jan 2012 12:16 pm

My BSG sounds blue,could it be because of the color?

Could be they player too,if you heard me you'd be blue too.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 4 Jan 2012 12:42 pm

I got it wrong, but only because I didn't know what a Stradivarius is supposed to sound like. I definitely heard a difference, and I thought the stronger attack or brightness of the violin on the first track would be the preferred tone.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 4 Jan 2012 3:33 pm

Johnny T....If anyone ever tells me they can identify a specific steel guitar consistently, I'll surely post it on the forum, and I trust you'll do the same. If someone has that ability, I would think they would want to come forward.

BTW...... I've tried to identify my own guitar, and failed miserably.

Paul S.... The sound properties of an acoustical instrument is vastly different from that of a steel guitar in which one has the ability to alter the sound/tone through amplification.

Different people playing the same steel guitar can make it sound different with the exact same settings. In my opinion the hands play a major role relative to sound/tone in both acoustic and electrical instruments.

Johnny Thomasson · Post by **Johnny Thomasson** » 4 Jan 2012 4:30 pm

Reece Anderson wrote:Johnny T....If anyone ever tells me they can identify a specific steel guitar consistently, I'll surely post it on the forum, and I trust you'll do the same. If someone has that ability, I would think they would want to come forward.

You can count on it!

billy tam · Post by **billy tam** » 6 Jan 2012 5:44 am

I listened a couple of times and luckily got it right. I thought there was a depth in the lows and a smoothness in the highs that might suggest aging in the fine wood used. Both sounded mighty good and I would be happy to play with a fiddle player with either sound.
Billy

Robert Jenkins · Post by **Robert Jenkins** » 8 Jan 2012 5:30 pm

billy-ditto.
i listened twice on macbook speakers and figured it out the first time. listened again to be sure i heard what i thought i heard. what i heard was an absence of effort in the upper register and a less tight but rounder bottom end. pretty easy, i thought. not to brag, but, c'mon.

Jim Hollingsworth · Post by **Jim Hollingsworth** » 8 Jan 2012 7:10 pm

It's kinda like a 55 Strat I had at one time .... really great guitar - but as soon as the drummer started playing you lost the "specialness" of it being a 55. So I play an Eric Johnson model now. Close and much more affordable!!!!!

Jim

Frank Montmarquet · Post by **Frank Montmarquet** » 30 Jan 2012 9:46 am

From todays paper:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/sunda ... ral&src=me

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 30 Jan 2012 10:13 am

I listened back and forth several times, though I already had my opinion the first time, and I picked the second clip as the Strad, because I liked it better, and because my concept of the effect of aging is that it would tend to mellow the highs and enrich the lows and low mids, and the first clip was "brighter", more strident, to my ear.

Just to toot my own horn, in the blind test of four steels someone (I forget who) posted on the Forum a couple of years ago, I correctly picked out the push/pull also. (The other three were of a brand I had no familiarity with, so I made no attempt to sort them out.)

Maybe I've just been lucky, who knows?

Norbert Dengler · Post by **Norbert Dengler** » 31 Jan 2012 5:37 am

liked the second one better after listening 3 times. less harsh, just pettier...

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 31 Jan 2012 9:36 am

I met a young man of 17 years age that played a fiddle and got one of the best tones I have heard. He told me that it was a cheap fiddle his parents bought him. I told the guy that sold it to him that it didn't sound like a cheap fiddle and his reply was "it depends whose hands it is in".

admin · Post by **b0b** » 31 Jan 2012 9:57 am

I liked the first one better, but picked the second one as the Stradivarious. It sounded like it would project better, which is very important in acoustic music. The first one sounded more even through the pitch range, which is what you need for modern recording.

Interestingly, this is the same difference that I hear between keyed and keyless pedal steels. The keyless guitars sound more even to my ears, less wild in the midrange harmonics.